Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 2: Electronic Edition
Pages 184 - 189 of 189
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May I suggest that what an objective, reputable historian
1telephone call. It is possible that that telephone call
2was made at Hitler's instigation
3A. [Mr Irving] Yes
4Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes
5A. [Mr Irving] Why did he make the phone call from Hitler's bunker then
6Q. [Mr Rampton] Because he happened to be there for heavens sake
7A. [Mr Irving] Why did he not make the phone call from his own
8headquarters? I do not want to say that I am less obtuse
9than you, but I am beginning to suspect it in this
10matter. It is not a question of reputable or not. It is
11a question of seeing a logical solution written in six
12inch letters in front of your own face
13Q. [Mr Rampton] I see
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: My impression, I think it is relevant on this
15topic, from your book Hitler's War is that at this time
16Himmler was seeing Hitler almost more often than anybody
17else
18A. [Mr Irving] Very frequently as we know now from his diary and
19telephone log, but you will appreciate that particular
20episode because it is a pivotal episode has now gone
21through three or four different chameleon like changes
22with very subtle refinements and a word knocked out here
23which cannot be justified and so on, as happens. One is
24constantly revising history. This does not mean to say
25one is manipulating or is in any way trying to exonerate.
26You are trying to get closer and closer and closer to the
1likelihood of what actually happened
2MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, tell me plainly, we are off course
3again but it does not matter, we will get back on course
4in a moment, tell me plainly what is the evidence for
5this, this is in the 1991 edition ---
6A. [Mr Irving] Right
7Q. [Mr Rampton] And you have repeated it since. I think you repeat it in
8the appendices or the footnotes to Goebbels, these words:
9"On 30th November he, Himmler, was summoned to the Wolf's
10lair", pause there. Sorry, page 427
11A. [Mr Irving] I am looking at my Himmler diary because I know what you
12are going to say next
13Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I expect you know it off by heart
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry
15MR RAMPTON: It is D1 (v). It is Hitler's War second volume,
161991 edition
17A. [Mr Irving] What is the evidence for ---
18Q. [Mr Rampton] Wait a minute. I am waiting until his Lordship has the
19volume
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes
21A. [Mr Irving] What page of Hitler's War is it? This is the new
22edition
23MR RAMPTON: Now you can help me with some German perhaps in a
24moment. It is the new edition. It is changed from the
251977 edition in that you have conceded that the Himmler
26order concerned but a single train load of Jews
1A. [Mr Irving] Yes
2Q. [Mr Rampton] Instead of Jews in general
3A. [Mr Irving] Yes
4Q. [Mr Rampton] Can you first of all explain why it was that in the 1977
5edition this passage referred to Jews in general
6A. [Mr Irving] It was a silly misreading of the word. If I show you the
7actual handwriting ---
8Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, it is printed in the book, is it not
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you said you misread, you could not
10read the handwriting of Himmler
11A. [Mr Irving] Perhaps I would like to show to his Lordship what the
12handwriting of Heydrich Himmler looks like
13MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship will find it in this ---
14A. [Mr Irving] I have a reasonable facsimile of the original here. He
15wrote a particularly nasty form Gothic spiky handwriting
16which modern Germans cannot read either. You could show
17that document to several Germans in this room, unless they
18were the older generation, they would not be able to read
19it. It is pretty horrific. I admit I made a mistake in
20the transcription. I was paying more attention to the
21position of the full stops in the lines which are quite
22important
23MR RAMPTON: Yes. I have it somewhere here. You actually
24printed a facsimile of that page in both the editions, did
25you not
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is in the following page 506
1A. [Mr Irving] It would be remarkable if when one transcribes a lot of
2that handwriting one does not occasionally miss out a
3letter E or something like that.
4MR RAMPTON: When printing that as a facsimile in your editions
5Hitler's War, you would not expect your ordinary English
6reader to be able to decipher what it said
7A. [Mr Irving] I would be very surprised if they could decipher that
8Q. [Mr Rampton] Even if they knew German
9A. [Mr Irving] Older generation Germans can read that, prewar
10generations
11Q. [Mr Rampton] But your ordinary English reader, these books are
12published primarily in English, are they not
13A. [Mr Irving] No. My books are published in every language in the
14world
15Q. [Mr Rampton] I know, but are they written in English originally
16A. [Mr Irving] This one was, yes. I have written books in German too
17Q. [Mr Rampton] As you fairly concede even a modern German might struggle
18with that unless they had the old handwriting
19A. [Mr Irving] The point I am trying to make is that this is not
20manipulation on my part. It is not manipulation or
21distortion. It is a traffic accident, shall we say
22Q. [Mr Rampton] I have to disagree with you. I do not have any training
23of the German language. I have relatively poor eyesight.
24I look at the word on the page and it quite plainly does
25not have an E on the end of it, does it
26A. [Mr Irving] No
1Q. [Mr Rampton] It is perfectly clear
2A. [Mr Irving] I now see that, yes
3Q. [Mr Rampton] Why did you put an E on it? Were you in a terrible hurry
4or very tired or something when you wrote this
5A. [Mr Irving] You are asking me to recall. This was actually written in
61970. We are looking at something 30 years ago you and
7you are asking me why I had an E on the end of a word
8which I wrote 30 years ago
9Q. [Mr Rampton] I will tell you why I am suggesting it was deliberate,
10Mr Irving, for a number of reasons which are cumulative,
11but one which is very closely related. There are two
12closely related reasons. The first we are coming back to
13in a moment which is the way you have handled he Bruns
14testimony, but the other is in relation to the entry for
15the following day, 1st December 1941, where for some
16reason best known to yourself, and of course we shall need
17to hear your explanation, you translate the words
18"[German] SS" as Jews
19A. [Mr Irving] No.
20Q. [Mr Rampton] That cannot be a misreading, can it
21A. [Mr Irving] I misread the word "harbun" for "uden" and I have it here
22in front of me and I will show that to his Lordship
23Q. [Mr Rampton] What have you got in front of you
24A. [Mr Irving] Himmler's diary, the actual handwritten page
25Q. [Mr Rampton] We have not got that. We would like to see it. May we
26see it
1A. [Mr Irving] Had I known you were going to attach importance to I would
2have provided you with any number of copies
3Q. [Mr Rampton] You would have heard in my opening speech that I attach
4some importance to it
5A. [Mr Irving] I am terribly sorry, but I had actually prepared a dozen
6facsimiles of this to bring in tomorrow in a bundle
7Q. [Mr Rampton] In fairness to you and perhaps to me we should leave it
8where it is until we get the facsimile
9A. [Mr Irving] Yes. I did envisage that I would have the running of this
10and that we would be looking at my bundle of stuff
11tomorrow
12Q. [Mr Rampton] The running of what, your cross-examination
13A. [Mr Irving] I had not ---
14Q. [Mr Rampton] Shall I sit down
15A. [Mr Irving] --- envisaged that I would envisioned I would be standing
16up for cross-examination today. Had I known that I would
17not have worked to 6 o'clock this morning preparing
18bundles
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You can blame me for that
20MR RAMPTON: That said, my Lord and since he was up until 6
21o'clock ---
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: ! I agree with what you are about to say.
23I think you have had quite a long day. 10.30 tomorrow
24morning
25(The court adjourned until the following day)
26
1telephone call. It is possible that that telephone call
2was made at Hitler's instigation
3A. [Mr Irving] Yes
4Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes
5A. [Mr Irving] Why did he make the phone call from Hitler's bunker then
6Q. [Mr Rampton] Because he happened to be there for heavens sake
7A. [Mr Irving] Why did he not make the phone call from his own
8headquarters? I do not want to say that I am less obtuse
9than you, but I am beginning to suspect it in this
10matter. It is not a question of reputable or not. It is
11a question of seeing a logical solution written in six
12inch letters in front of your own face
13Q. [Mr Rampton] I see
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: My impression, I think it is relevant on this
15topic, from your book Hitler's War is that at this time
16Himmler was seeing Hitler almost more often than anybody
17else
18A. [Mr Irving] Very frequently as we know now from his diary and
19telephone log, but you will appreciate that particular
20episode because it is a pivotal episode has now gone
21through three or four different chameleon like changes
22with very subtle refinements and a word knocked out here
23which cannot be justified and so on, as happens. One is
24constantly revising history. This does not mean to say
25one is manipulating or is in any way trying to exonerate.
26You are trying to get closer and closer and closer to the
. P-287
1likelihood of what actually happened
2MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, tell me plainly, we are off course
3again but it does not matter, we will get back on course
4in a moment, tell me plainly what is the evidence for
5this, this is in the 1991 edition ---
6A. [Mr Irving] Right
7Q. [Mr Rampton] And you have repeated it since. I think you repeat it in
8the appendices or the footnotes to Goebbels, these words:
9"On 30th November he, Himmler, was summoned to the Wolf's
10lair", pause there. Sorry, page 427
11A. [Mr Irving] I am looking at my Himmler diary because I know what you
12are going to say next
13Q. [Mr Justice Gray] I expect you know it off by heart
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry
15MR RAMPTON: It is D1 (v). It is Hitler's War second volume,
161991 edition
17A. [Mr Irving] What is the evidence for ---
18Q. [Mr Rampton] Wait a minute. I am waiting until his Lordship has the
19volume
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes
21A. [Mr Irving] What page of Hitler's War is it? This is the new
22edition
23MR RAMPTON: Now you can help me with some German perhaps in a
24moment. It is the new edition. It is changed from the
251977 edition in that you have conceded that the Himmler
26order concerned but a single train load of Jews
. P-288
1A. [Mr Irving] Yes
2Q. [Mr Rampton] Instead of Jews in general
3A. [Mr Irving] Yes
4Q. [Mr Rampton] Can you first of all explain why it was that in the 1977
5edition this passage referred to Jews in general
6A. [Mr Irving] It was a silly misreading of the word. If I show you the
7actual handwriting ---
8Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, it is printed in the book, is it not
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you said you misread, you could not
10read the handwriting of Himmler
11A. [Mr Irving] Perhaps I would like to show to his Lordship what the
12handwriting of Heydrich Himmler looks like
13MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship will find it in this ---
14A. [Mr Irving] I have a reasonable facsimile of the original here. He
15wrote a particularly nasty form Gothic spiky handwriting
16which modern Germans cannot read either. You could show
17that document to several Germans in this room, unless they
18were the older generation, they would not be able to read
19it. It is pretty horrific. I admit I made a mistake in
20the transcription. I was paying more attention to the
21position of the full stops in the lines which are quite
22important
23MR RAMPTON: Yes. I have it somewhere here. You actually
24printed a facsimile of that page in both the editions, did
25you not
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is in the following page 506
. P-289
1A. [Mr Irving] It would be remarkable if when one transcribes a lot of
2that handwriting one does not occasionally miss out a
3letter E or something like that.
4MR RAMPTON: When printing that as a facsimile in your editions
5Hitler's War, you would not expect your ordinary English
6reader to be able to decipher what it said
7A. [Mr Irving] I would be very surprised if they could decipher that
8Q. [Mr Rampton] Even if they knew German
9A. [Mr Irving] Older generation Germans can read that, prewar
10generations
11Q. [Mr Rampton] But your ordinary English reader, these books are
12published primarily in English, are they not
13A. [Mr Irving] No. My books are published in every language in the
14world
15Q. [Mr Rampton] I know, but are they written in English originally
16A. [Mr Irving] This one was, yes. I have written books in German too
17Q. [Mr Rampton] As you fairly concede even a modern German might struggle
18with that unless they had the old handwriting
19A. [Mr Irving] The point I am trying to make is that this is not
20manipulation on my part. It is not manipulation or
21distortion. It is a traffic accident, shall we say
22Q. [Mr Rampton] I have to disagree with you. I do not have any training
23of the German language. I have relatively poor eyesight.
24I look at the word on the page and it quite plainly does
25not have an E on the end of it, does it
26A. [Mr Irving] No
. P-290
1Q. [Mr Rampton] It is perfectly clear
2A. [Mr Irving] I now see that, yes
3Q. [Mr Rampton] Why did you put an E on it? Were you in a terrible hurry
4or very tired or something when you wrote this
5A. [Mr Irving] You are asking me to recall. This was actually written in
61970. We are looking at something 30 years ago you and
7you are asking me why I had an E on the end of a word
8which I wrote 30 years ago
9Q. [Mr Rampton] I will tell you why I am suggesting it was deliberate,
10Mr Irving, for a number of reasons which are cumulative,
11but one which is very closely related. There are two
12closely related reasons. The first we are coming back to
13in a moment which is the way you have handled he Bruns
14testimony, but the other is in relation to the entry for
15the following day, 1st December 1941, where for some
16reason best known to yourself, and of course we shall need
17to hear your explanation, you translate the words
18"[German] SS" as Jews
19A. [Mr Irving] No.
20Q. [Mr Rampton] That cannot be a misreading, can it
21A. [Mr Irving] I misread the word "harbun" for "uden" and I have it here
22in front of me and I will show that to his Lordship
23Q. [Mr Rampton] What have you got in front of you
24A. [Mr Irving] Himmler's diary, the actual handwritten page
25Q. [Mr Rampton] We have not got that. We would like to see it. May we
26see it
. P-291
1A. [Mr Irving] Had I known you were going to attach importance to I would
2have provided you with any number of copies
3Q. [Mr Rampton] You would have heard in my opening speech that I attach
4some importance to it
5A. [Mr Irving] I am terribly sorry, but I had actually prepared a dozen
6facsimiles of this to bring in tomorrow in a bundle
7Q. [Mr Rampton] In fairness to you and perhaps to me we should leave it
8where it is until we get the facsimile
9A. [Mr Irving] Yes. I did envisage that I would have the running of this
10and that we would be looking at my bundle of stuff
11tomorrow
12Q. [Mr Rampton] The running of what, your cross-examination
13A. [Mr Irving] I had not ---
14Q. [Mr Rampton] Shall I sit down
15A. [Mr Irving] --- envisaged that I would envisioned I would be standing
16up for cross-examination today. Had I known that I would
17not have worked to 6 o'clock this morning preparing
18bundles
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You can blame me for that
20MR RAMPTON: That said, my Lord and since he was up until 6
21o'clock ---
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: ! I agree with what you are about to say.
23I think you have had quite a long day. 10.30 tomorrow
24morning
25(The court adjourned until the following day)
26
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