Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 3: Electronic Edition
Pages 199 - 204 of 204
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But if you read what we find here in Professor Evans'
1Adolf Hitler?
2A. [Mr Irving] Can we have a look at the passage you are relying on,
3please?
4Q. [Mr Rampton] The which?
5A. [Mr Irving] The passage of the Wisliceny report you are relying upon
6in the Evans...
7Q. [Mr Rampton] One would have to go back now to ----
8A. [Mr Irving] I no longer trust your paraphrases, you see, Mr Rampton.
9Q. [Mr Rampton] --- where I was.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is page 340, I think.
11MR RAMPTON: Yes. 345, sorry, my Lord. The passage -- I am
12not going to read it again, I have read it once already.
13Read what is said there. The German is at the bottom of
14the page, so if you are going to criticise Professor
15Evans' translation, say so now.
16A. [Mr Irving] The English is a slightly vague translation. I am looking
17at the paragraph at the top of page 345, where he says
18this is just simply "reference in this connection also to
19the Goebbels-article" ----
20Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes?
21A. [Mr Irving] --- "'The Jews are guilty'".
22Q. [Mr Rampton] What does the German say?
23A. [Mr Irving] The German says: "In this connection, I draw attention
24also to the Goebbels-article 'The Jews are to blame' in an
25edition of the newspaper Das Reich" which is possibly a
26slightly more coherent way of translating it.
1Q. [Mr Rampton] But he is talking about German propaganda, that is to say,
2domestic propaganda, is he not?
3A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
4Q. [Mr Rampton] After 11th December when Hitler, perhaps rather stupidly,
5declared war on the United States?
6A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] He is talking about the Yellow Star and he is talking
8about the article in Das Reich as examples. He then
9said: "In this period of time, after the beginning of the
10war with the USA, I am convinced must fall the decision of
11Hitler which ordered the biological annihilation of
12European Jews". So how is it, if that is the piece you
13were referring to, that that gets converted into Dieter
14Wisliceny saying that the article by Goebbels in Das Reich
15was a watershed?
16A. [Mr Irving] I beg to differ with you. I think that even this source
17bears me out. He said the words you omitted in your
18summary, he says: "The second wave of radicalization
19began" and the instance of this he gives is the
20publication of the article. This is what triggered off
21the off the second wave of radicalization. But you have
22also overlooked, and I am sorry I tripped you up on this
23when you referred to the Goebbels' Diaries, would you like
24to read out the reference for the passage that I gave
25you? You implied that it relies only on the Wisliceny
26report.
1Q. [Mr Rampton] No, you refer to something else, but so what? Sorry, I am
2not following you.
3A. [Mr Irving] If you look in the source reference, it clearly says:
4"Wisliceny report and interrogations of Wisliceny in the
5national archives" which Professor Evans has obviously not
6bothered to look at.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] I am quite open-minded, Mr Irving. If you tell me that in
8the interrogations, as opposed to the report, there is a
9positive statement by Wisliceny to the effect that
10Goebbels' article was the watershed or a watershed, then
11I will accept it, if you tell me to find it?
12A. [Mr Irving] Mr Rampton, I am under oath and I am not going to make a
13statement from memory for something that I cannot back up
14without going home and checking the files. All that I do
15say is that Professor Evans has made no reference to the
16fact that I used other sources to justify that one
17sentence and that he, apparently, has not bothered to go
18and have a look at those interrogations of Wisliceny
19because they are so many thousands of miles away.
20Q. [Mr Rampton] We may just have time to go over to the other side of this
21page in Evans' Report, 346 at paragraph 4. This is a
22further extract, says Professor Evans -- of course, you
23may prove that he is wrong about it -- this is an extract
24from the same document, apparently, where Wisliceny says
25this:
26 "According to Eichmann's own report, which he
1made to me, Globocnig (sic) was the first to use gas
2chambers for the mass extermination of humans. Globocnig
3had set up big labour camps for Jews in his area of
4command, and he got rid of those who were unable to work
5in the manner described. As Eichmann explained,
6this 'procedure' was 'less conspicuous' than the mass
7shootings". The German is "Massenerschiessungen". Do you
8remember those words? Do they ring a bell?
9A. [Mr Irving] Yes, indeed.
10Q. [Mr Rampton] Something to do with General Bruns? Does that ring a
11bell?
12A. [Mr Irving] Well, there were mass shootings occurring all over the
13Eastern Front. It is not specifically a reference just to
14that one. There were mass shootings at Riga, there were
15mass shootings at Minsk, mass shootings elsewhere in the
16Ukraine. So it would be specious just to say this is a
17reference to the Bruns Report.
18Q. [Mr Rampton] My point is a slightly different one. Indeed, it is not a
19reference to the Bruns Report.
20A. [Mr Irving] Well, you mentioned the Bruns.
21Q. [Mr Rampton] Exactly, and I will tell you why. What Bruns said he was
22told by Altemeyer was to precisely the same effect, "These
23mass shootings, or mass shootings of this kind, mass
24shootings, must stop. That must be done more discreetly"?
25A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
26Q. [Mr Rampton] It is almost a mirror image of what Wisliceny reports
1Eichmann having said, this procedure, gassing, was less
2conspicuous, "unauffalliger" ----
3A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
4Q. [Mr Rampton] --- than the "Massenerschiessungen"?
5A. [Mr Irving] This was the tendency in the SS; they did not like
6shooting people. Shooting took it out of them.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] Sure.
8A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
9Q. [Mr Rampton] And that is why they took to gassing people, is it not?
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: But you accept, do you, Mr Irving, that ----
11A. [Mr Irving] Gassing did occur, yes.
12Q. [Mr Justice Gray] --- the Bruns Report corresponds with what is, apparently,
13recorded in Eichmann's report?
14MR RAMPTON: In Wisliceny's report, my Lord.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, in Wisliceny's report.
16MR RAMPTON: It is double hearsay, if you like, but so what if
17you are an historian.
18A. [Mr Irving] It is indeed and the word "report", of course, is slightly
19sharpening it up. He is actually just saying, "According
20to what Eichmann said", he is saying.
21MR RAMPTON: Do they not echo one another?
22A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
23Q. [Mr Rampton] Bruns is talking about shootings in the Osland in Latvia?
24A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
25Q. [Mr Rampton] Here Wisliceny is talking much more generally, is he not?
26A. [Mr Irving] Indeed, yes, and we do not know about what period he is
1talking about, we do not know about what region he is
2talking about.
3Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you not detect in the convergence of those two
4completely otherwise unrelated pieces of evidence ----
5A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
6Q. [Mr Rampton] --- even a hint of a suggestion that the reality was that
7mass shootings were embarrassing because they could get
8out because it upset the soldiers too much, because it was
9expensive in bullets, a shift in policy from shooting to a
10more discreet means of disposal, that is to say, gassing?
11A. [Mr Irving] I am afraid that was such a long question that I had lost
12you halfway through again.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think it is the end of a longish day
14for Mr Irving and I think we will...
15MR RAMPTON: I will repeat the question first thing on Monday
16morning.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Will you?
18MR RAMPTON: It will be on the transcript.
19A. [Mr Irving] Can you put it in two halves so that ----
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was a long question. Anyway, we are
21adjourning now.
22A. [Mr Irving] --- a bear of limited brain can follow it, but I lost it.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: So it is 10.30 on Monday in court 73.
24(The court adjourned until 10.30 p.m. on Monday, 17th
25January 2000)
26
1Adolf Hitler?
2A. [Mr Irving] Can we have a look at the passage you are relying on,
3please?
4Q. [Mr Rampton] The which?
5A. [Mr Irving] The passage of the Wisliceny report you are relying upon
6in the Evans...
7Q. [Mr Rampton] One would have to go back now to ----
8A. [Mr Irving] I no longer trust your paraphrases, you see, Mr Rampton.
9Q. [Mr Rampton] --- where I was.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is page 340, I think.
11MR RAMPTON: Yes. 345, sorry, my Lord. The passage -- I am
12not going to read it again, I have read it once already.
13Read what is said there. The German is at the bottom of
14the page, so if you are going to criticise Professor
15Evans' translation, say so now.
16A. [Mr Irving] The English is a slightly vague translation. I am looking
17at the paragraph at the top of page 345, where he says
18this is just simply "reference in this connection also to
19the Goebbels-article" ----
20Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes?
21A. [Mr Irving] --- "'The Jews are guilty'".
22Q. [Mr Rampton] What does the German say?
23A. [Mr Irving] The German says: "In this connection, I draw attention
24also to the Goebbels-article 'The Jews are to blame' in an
25edition of the newspaper Das Reich" which is possibly a
26slightly more coherent way of translating it.
. P-199
1Q. [Mr Rampton] But he is talking about German propaganda, that is to say,
2domestic propaganda, is he not?
3A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
4Q. [Mr Rampton] After 11th December when Hitler, perhaps rather stupidly,
5declared war on the United States?
6A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] He is talking about the Yellow Star and he is talking
8about the article in Das Reich as examples. He then
9said: "In this period of time, after the beginning of the
10war with the USA, I am convinced must fall the decision of
11Hitler which ordered the biological annihilation of
12European Jews". So how is it, if that is the piece you
13were referring to, that that gets converted into Dieter
14Wisliceny saying that the article by Goebbels in Das Reich
15was a watershed?
16A. [Mr Irving] I beg to differ with you. I think that even this source
17bears me out. He said the words you omitted in your
18summary, he says: "The second wave of radicalization
19began" and the instance of this he gives is the
20publication of the article. This is what triggered off
21the off the second wave of radicalization. But you have
22also overlooked, and I am sorry I tripped you up on this
23when you referred to the Goebbels' Diaries, would you like
24to read out the reference for the passage that I gave
25you? You implied that it relies only on the Wisliceny
26report.
. P-200
1Q. [Mr Rampton] No, you refer to something else, but so what? Sorry, I am
2not following you.
3A. [Mr Irving] If you look in the source reference, it clearly says:
4"Wisliceny report and interrogations of Wisliceny in the
5national archives" which Professor Evans has obviously not
6bothered to look at.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] I am quite open-minded, Mr Irving. If you tell me that in
8the interrogations, as opposed to the report, there is a
9positive statement by Wisliceny to the effect that
10Goebbels' article was the watershed or a watershed, then
11I will accept it, if you tell me to find it?
12A. [Mr Irving] Mr Rampton, I am under oath and I am not going to make a
13statement from memory for something that I cannot back up
14without going home and checking the files. All that I do
15say is that Professor Evans has made no reference to the
16fact that I used other sources to justify that one
17sentence and that he, apparently, has not bothered to go
18and have a look at those interrogations of Wisliceny
19because they are so many thousands of miles away.
20Q. [Mr Rampton] We may just have time to go over to the other side of this
21page in Evans' Report, 346 at paragraph 4. This is a
22further extract, says Professor Evans -- of course, you
23may prove that he is wrong about it -- this is an extract
24from the same document, apparently, where Wisliceny says
25this:
26 "According to Eichmann's own report, which he
. P-201
1made to me, Globocnig (sic) was the first to use gas
2chambers for the mass extermination of humans. Globocnig
3had set up big labour camps for Jews in his area of
4command, and he got rid of those who were unable to work
5in the manner described. As Eichmann explained,
6this 'procedure' was 'less conspicuous' than the mass
7shootings". The German is "Massenerschiessungen". Do you
8remember those words? Do they ring a bell?
9A. [Mr Irving] Yes, indeed.
10Q. [Mr Rampton] Something to do with General Bruns? Does that ring a
11bell?
12A. [Mr Irving] Well, there were mass shootings occurring all over the
13Eastern Front. It is not specifically a reference just to
14that one. There were mass shootings at Riga, there were
15mass shootings at Minsk, mass shootings elsewhere in the
16Ukraine. So it would be specious just to say this is a
17reference to the Bruns Report.
18Q. [Mr Rampton] My point is a slightly different one. Indeed, it is not a
19reference to the Bruns Report.
20A. [Mr Irving] Well, you mentioned the Bruns.
21Q. [Mr Rampton] Exactly, and I will tell you why. What Bruns said he was
22told by Altemeyer was to precisely the same effect, "These
23mass shootings, or mass shootings of this kind, mass
24shootings, must stop. That must be done more discreetly"?
25A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
26Q. [Mr Rampton] It is almost a mirror image of what Wisliceny reports
. P-202
1Eichmann having said, this procedure, gassing, was less
2conspicuous, "unauffalliger" ----
3A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
4Q. [Mr Rampton] --- than the "Massenerschiessungen"?
5A. [Mr Irving] This was the tendency in the SS; they did not like
6shooting people. Shooting took it out of them.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] Sure.
8A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
9Q. [Mr Rampton] And that is why they took to gassing people, is it not?
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: But you accept, do you, Mr Irving, that ----
11A. [Mr Irving] Gassing did occur, yes.
12Q. [Mr Justice Gray] --- the Bruns Report corresponds with what is, apparently,
13recorded in Eichmann's report?
14MR RAMPTON: In Wisliceny's report, my Lord.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, in Wisliceny's report.
16MR RAMPTON: It is double hearsay, if you like, but so what if
17you are an historian.
18A. [Mr Irving] It is indeed and the word "report", of course, is slightly
19sharpening it up. He is actually just saying, "According
20to what Eichmann said", he is saying.
21MR RAMPTON: Do they not echo one another?
22A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
23Q. [Mr Rampton] Bruns is talking about shootings in the Osland in Latvia?
24A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
25Q. [Mr Rampton] Here Wisliceny is talking much more generally, is he not?
26A. [Mr Irving] Indeed, yes, and we do not know about what period he is
. P-203
1talking about, we do not know about what region he is
2talking about.
3Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you not detect in the convergence of those two
4completely otherwise unrelated pieces of evidence ----
5A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
6Q. [Mr Rampton] --- even a hint of a suggestion that the reality was that
7mass shootings were embarrassing because they could get
8out because it upset the soldiers too much, because it was
9expensive in bullets, a shift in policy from shooting to a
10more discreet means of disposal, that is to say, gassing?
11A. [Mr Irving] I am afraid that was such a long question that I had lost
12you halfway through again.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think it is the end of a longish day
14for Mr Irving and I think we will...
15MR RAMPTON: I will repeat the question first thing on Monday
16morning.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Will you?
18MR RAMPTON: It will be on the transcript.
19A. [Mr Irving] Can you put it in two halves so that ----
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was a long question. Anyway, we are
21adjourning now.
22A. [Mr Irving] --- a bear of limited brain can follow it, but I lost it.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: So it is 10.30 on Monday in court 73.
24(The court adjourned until 10.30 p.m. on Monday, 17th
25January 2000)
26
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