Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition
Pages 202 - 207 of 207
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Page 415, I have not run a check to see whether we
1of whether the table talk is really so, what shall we say,
2unmisstated as you put it, as you suggest.
3 "At Hitler's table talk on 22nd February 1942,
4the following statement was recorded: It is one of the
5greatest revolutions there has ever been in the world.
6The Jew will be identified! The same fight that Pasteur
7and Koch had to fight must be led by us today.
8Innumerable sicknesses have their origin in one bacillus:
9the Jew. Japan would also have got them", the bacilli, I
10think, "if it had remained open any longer to the Jew. We
11will get well when we eliminate the Jew", and the word he
12uses, is reported as having used, is "eliminieren"?
13A. [Mr Irving] "Eliminieren", yes.
14Q. [Mr Rampton] That is pretty blunt, is it not?
15A. [Mr Irving] Yes, but there is no suggestion that I have not repeatedly
16and on every occasion stated when Hitler referred to the
17Jews as "bascilli" that need to be eliminated. Of course,
18I did.
19Q. [Mr Rampton] What does antibiotic medicine do to bascilli?
20A. [Mr Irving] Good Lord! You are not asking me as a medical expert,
21surely?
22Q. [Mr Rampton] Come on, Mr Irving, you are older than I am. I do not say
23you remember Pasteur and Koch, but, for heaven's sake, we
24all know what antibiotics do, they kill germs?
25A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
26Q. [Mr Rampton] That is what Pasteur discovered, was it not?
1A. [Mr Irving] He has not actually talked about antibiotics in here, has
2he? I do not want to start nit-picking which is the
3opposite of what you are doing.
4Q. [Mr Rampton] The meaning of this is kill the germs, the Jewish germs,
5is it not?
6A. [Mr Irving] Eliminating them.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] How do you get rid of germs except by killing?
8A. [Mr Irving] I have no idea. You can wash your hands in soap and
9water. There are various different ways of getting rid of
10germs. That is why he has used word "eliminate".
11Q. [Mr Rampton] That is right, you send them to Madagascar or Russia in a
12plastic bag.
13A. [Mr Irving] That is the July 1942 entry which you did not want to have
14read out.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] I am coming to that. I do not use the same kind of
16ellipses, Mr Irving, as I suggest you do.
17A. [Mr Irving] I am aware of the fact that we are coming up to the end of
18the afternoon and you have left the public without some of
19the best items which are in my favour, if they are going
20to be mentioned at all.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think we can co-ordinate the
22evidence. It is a nice idea! Let us have one more, shall
23we?
24MR RAMPTON: We are going to have the next one on 24th
25February.
26A. [Mr Irving] Can we not have July 1942?
1Q. [Mr Rampton] We will get to it tomorrow and you can have your audience,
2but you cannot be my stage manager, I am afraid,
3Mr Irving.
4 On 24th February 1942 a statement by Hitler was
5announced to NSDAP party members in Munich which again
6made a reference to his prophecy."
7 Before I read it, Mr Irving, I want to know
8whether you say this is something which was cooked up by
9party officials without reference to Hitler?
10A. [Mr Irving] I am not going to express an opinion on that. It is taken
11out of Max Demarus' collection of press clippings,
12effectively. So it is a published statement, published in
13the German press. So it actually cannot have a very
14sinister connotation, surely.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not know.
16A. [Mr Irving] I thought this was top secret what was going on.
17Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not know if you read it.
18 "Today the idea of our National Socialist, and
19that of the fascist revolution, have conquered great and
20powerful states, and my prophecy will find its fulfilment,
21that through this war Aryan humankind will not be
22annihilated, but the Jew will be", ausgerottet werden
23wird, will be ausgerottet?
24A. [Mr Irving] Yes, he has used the fifth or sixth meaning of the word
25"ausgerottet" rather than the primary meaning.
26Q. [Mr Rampton] Well, we might go back to the Langscheite overnight or
1some greater authority, I do not know.
2A. [Mr Irving] I have a whole shelf of dictionaries.
3Q. [Mr Rampton] I am not going to do it now.
4 "Whatever the struggle may bring with it or
5however long it may last, this will be its final result,
6and only then with the removal of these parasites with a
7long period of understanding between nations, and with it
8true peace, come upon the suffering."
9 Again, it is similar to the reference to the
10"bacillus". Of course in one sense it is metaphorical.
11A. [Mr Irving] It does not really help us, does it, actually, getting rid
12of the Jews?
13Q. [Mr Rampton] If you talk about ridding a house of its parasites ----
14A. [Mr Irving] "Beseitigung", getting rid of, yes.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, or exterminating them ----
16A. [Mr Irving] I am thinking of somebody with a broom, like, "get out of
17here, "get out of here".
18Q. [Mr Rampton] Parasites, no, I think not, Mr Irving. What I am
19suggesting is that Hitler did not need at his table talk
20or in his public occasions to talk about gas chambers or
21shootings, indeed he would not have done, but he is
22talking in terms of genocide, is he not?
23A. [Mr Irving] So he is announcing it in the press, "We are going to be
24carrying out genocide"? This is a press clipping.
25Q. [Mr Rampton] This is an announcement to party members?
26A. [Mr Irving] It is in the press, the VB in the footnote that has been
1printed in the press. It is a public statement, the party
2policy.
3Q. [Mr Rampton] It portrays a state of mind if you put these things
4together, does it not?
5A. [Mr Irving] Yes, but, on the other hand, I do emphasise this is a
6public statement, so he is hardly going to out saying,
7"yes, we are going to be liquidating all the Jews".
8Q. [Mr Rampton] If we had but this one public statement to say that Hitler
9intended physical annihilation of the Jews, "biologische
10vernichtung" but this one document, I would not be
11suggesting ----
12A. [Mr Irving] Excuse me, he does not say "biologische vernichtung" in
13this document.
14Q. [Mr Rampton] Wait, Mr Irving. Sometimes you do not listen.
15A. [Mr Irving] That is manipulation again.
16Q. [Mr Rampton] No, Mr Irving, you do not listen. I said if we had this
17document and this document alone to convict Hitler of an
18intention to achieve a biologische vernichtung, it would
19not be very good evidence. Do you see? I do not take
20documents one by one. I take the cumulative effect.
21A. [Mr Irving] This is part of your chain of documents.
22Q. [Mr Rampton] If you like, Mr Irving, yes.
23A. [Mr Irving] This chain against chain.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that a convenient moment? You have
25finished with that.
26MR RAMPTON: Yes, my Lord. I am going to come on to one or two
1more of these table talks. As I promised I would,
2tomorrow morning.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: At some stage will you be looking, if not,
4well, so be it, at the very early statements which are
5pretty much the same.
6MR RAMPTON: They are very much the same. They are all
7collected in the first part of Longerich.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: That may be sufficient.
9MR RAMPTON: That may be sufficient.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving may want to comment on whether he
11takes those into account when he is evaluating Hitler's
12knowledge.
13MR RAMPTON: If I may say so, that is very fair. Perhaps I
14ought to do that ----
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not this evening.
16A. [Mr Irving] I shall certainly be taking it into account in
17cross-examination of Longerich, which is probably the
18proper time to deal with them.
19< (The witness withdrew).
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: 10.30 tomorrow.
21(The court adjourned until the following day)
22
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26
1of whether the table talk is really so, what shall we say,
2unmisstated as you put it, as you suggest.
3 "At Hitler's table talk on 22nd February 1942,
4the following statement was recorded: It is one of the
5greatest revolutions there has ever been in the world.
6The Jew will be identified! The same fight that Pasteur
7and Koch had to fight must be led by us today.
8Innumerable sicknesses have their origin in one bacillus:
9the Jew. Japan would also have got them", the bacilli, I
10think, "if it had remained open any longer to the Jew. We
11will get well when we eliminate the Jew", and the word he
12uses, is reported as having used, is "eliminieren"?
13A. [Mr Irving] "Eliminieren", yes.
14Q. [Mr Rampton] That is pretty blunt, is it not?
15A. [Mr Irving] Yes, but there is no suggestion that I have not repeatedly
16and on every occasion stated when Hitler referred to the
17Jews as "bascilli" that need to be eliminated. Of course,
18I did.
19Q. [Mr Rampton] What does antibiotic medicine do to bascilli?
20A. [Mr Irving] Good Lord! You are not asking me as a medical expert,
21surely?
22Q. [Mr Rampton] Come on, Mr Irving, you are older than I am. I do not say
23you remember Pasteur and Koch, but, for heaven's sake, we
24all know what antibiotics do, they kill germs?
25A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
26Q. [Mr Rampton] That is what Pasteur discovered, was it not?
. P-202
1A. [Mr Irving] He has not actually talked about antibiotics in here, has
2he? I do not want to start nit-picking which is the
3opposite of what you are doing.
4Q. [Mr Rampton] The meaning of this is kill the germs, the Jewish germs,
5is it not?
6A. [Mr Irving] Eliminating them.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] How do you get rid of germs except by killing?
8A. [Mr Irving] I have no idea. You can wash your hands in soap and
9water. There are various different ways of getting rid of
10germs. That is why he has used word "eliminate".
11Q. [Mr Rampton] That is right, you send them to Madagascar or Russia in a
12plastic bag.
13A. [Mr Irving] That is the July 1942 entry which you did not want to have
14read out.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] I am coming to that. I do not use the same kind of
16ellipses, Mr Irving, as I suggest you do.
17A. [Mr Irving] I am aware of the fact that we are coming up to the end of
18the afternoon and you have left the public without some of
19the best items which are in my favour, if they are going
20to be mentioned at all.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think we can co-ordinate the
22evidence. It is a nice idea! Let us have one more, shall
23we?
24MR RAMPTON: We are going to have the next one on 24th
25February.
26A. [Mr Irving] Can we not have July 1942?
. P-203
1Q. [Mr Rampton] We will get to it tomorrow and you can have your audience,
2but you cannot be my stage manager, I am afraid,
3Mr Irving.
4 On 24th February 1942 a statement by Hitler was
5announced to NSDAP party members in Munich which again
6made a reference to his prophecy."
7 Before I read it, Mr Irving, I want to know
8whether you say this is something which was cooked up by
9party officials without reference to Hitler?
10A. [Mr Irving] I am not going to express an opinion on that. It is taken
11out of Max Demarus' collection of press clippings,
12effectively. So it is a published statement, published in
13the German press. So it actually cannot have a very
14sinister connotation, surely.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not know.
16A. [Mr Irving] I thought this was top secret what was going on.
17Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not know if you read it.
18 "Today the idea of our National Socialist, and
19that of the fascist revolution, have conquered great and
20powerful states, and my prophecy will find its fulfilment,
21that through this war Aryan humankind will not be
22annihilated, but the Jew will be", ausgerottet werden
23wird, will be ausgerottet?
24A. [Mr Irving] Yes, he has used the fifth or sixth meaning of the word
25"ausgerottet" rather than the primary meaning.
26Q. [Mr Rampton] Well, we might go back to the Langscheite overnight or
. P-204
1some greater authority, I do not know.
2A. [Mr Irving] I have a whole shelf of dictionaries.
3Q. [Mr Rampton] I am not going to do it now.
4 "Whatever the struggle may bring with it or
5however long it may last, this will be its final result,
6and only then with the removal of these parasites with a
7long period of understanding between nations, and with it
8true peace, come upon the suffering."
9 Again, it is similar to the reference to the
10"bacillus". Of course in one sense it is metaphorical.
11A. [Mr Irving] It does not really help us, does it, actually, getting rid
12of the Jews?
13Q. [Mr Rampton] If you talk about ridding a house of its parasites ----
14A. [Mr Irving] "Beseitigung", getting rid of, yes.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, or exterminating them ----
16A. [Mr Irving] I am thinking of somebody with a broom, like, "get out of
17here, "get out of here".
18Q. [Mr Rampton] Parasites, no, I think not, Mr Irving. What I am
19suggesting is that Hitler did not need at his table talk
20or in his public occasions to talk about gas chambers or
21shootings, indeed he would not have done, but he is
22talking in terms of genocide, is he not?
23A. [Mr Irving] So he is announcing it in the press, "We are going to be
24carrying out genocide"? This is a press clipping.
25Q. [Mr Rampton] This is an announcement to party members?
26A. [Mr Irving] It is in the press, the VB in the footnote that has been
. P-205
1printed in the press. It is a public statement, the party
2policy.
3Q. [Mr Rampton] It portrays a state of mind if you put these things
4together, does it not?
5A. [Mr Irving] Yes, but, on the other hand, I do emphasise this is a
6public statement, so he is hardly going to out saying,
7"yes, we are going to be liquidating all the Jews".
8Q. [Mr Rampton] If we had but this one public statement to say that Hitler
9intended physical annihilation of the Jews, "biologische
10vernichtung" but this one document, I would not be
11suggesting ----
12A. [Mr Irving] Excuse me, he does not say "biologische vernichtung" in
13this document.
14Q. [Mr Rampton] Wait, Mr Irving. Sometimes you do not listen.
15A. [Mr Irving] That is manipulation again.
16Q. [Mr Rampton] No, Mr Irving, you do not listen. I said if we had this
17document and this document alone to convict Hitler of an
18intention to achieve a biologische vernichtung, it would
19not be very good evidence. Do you see? I do not take
20documents one by one. I take the cumulative effect.
21A. [Mr Irving] This is part of your chain of documents.
22Q. [Mr Rampton] If you like, Mr Irving, yes.
23A. [Mr Irving] This chain against chain.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that a convenient moment? You have
25finished with that.
26MR RAMPTON: Yes, my Lord. I am going to come on to one or two
. P-206
1more of these table talks. As I promised I would,
2tomorrow morning.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: At some stage will you be looking, if not,
4well, so be it, at the very early statements which are
5pretty much the same.
6MR RAMPTON: They are very much the same. They are all
7collected in the first part of Longerich.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: That may be sufficient.
9MR RAMPTON: That may be sufficient.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving may want to comment on whether he
11takes those into account when he is evaluating Hitler's
12knowledge.
13MR RAMPTON: If I may say so, that is very fair. Perhaps I
14ought to do that ----
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not this evening.
16A. [Mr Irving] I shall certainly be taking it into account in
17cross-examination of Longerich, which is probably the
18proper time to deal with them.
19< (The witness withdrew).
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: 10.30 tomorrow.
21(The court adjourned until the following day)
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