Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 6: Electronic Edition
Pages 184 - 189 of 195
| << 1-6 | < 178-183 | 190-195 > | 189-195 >> |
Apart from that fact, would I also be right that in
1that it is in fact a highly significant statement because
2it is referring to postponing the Jewish question
3altogether until after the end of the war?
4A. [Mr Irving] My Lord, with respect, I would draw attention to the fact
5that in that very paragraph you are alluding to, I refer
6to the fact that it came immediately after the discussion
7about the half Jews and the mixed Jews.
8Q. [Mr Justice Gray] That is true. You think that is enough to tell the reader
9that this may not really be a very significant statement?
10A. [Mr Irving] Well, it tells the intelligent reader the kind of context
11in which this document was found. It has taken Professor
12Evans, I think, eight pages to analyse the value of this
13document. I did not have eight pages. I have one
14paragraph or less.
15MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, I must say I happen to believe his
16Lordship is right, that is very, what I shall say, weasley
17reference to the mischlinge question in Hitler's War.
18A. [Mr Irving] His Lordship did not say weasley reference. I do not
19think he used those words.
20Q. [Mr Rampton] I interpret what I hear or see, Mr Irving. I suggest to
21you that the reference to the mischlinge question in
22Hitler's War is not apt to lead the reader to suppose that
23you are saying, which you are plainly not, that the
24so-called Schlegelberger note has anything to do with the
25mischlinge question. Not directly.
26A. [Mr Irving] I will not read it out, my Lord, but it is the third
1paragraph on page 464.
2MR RAMPTON: Yes, I know.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have it well in mind. I have in mind what
4you say in the last sentence of that paragraph.
5A. [Mr Irving] I rely simply on that paragraph and my own comment on it.
6MR RAMPTON: I think I have it here.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, if it helps -- it probably will
8not -- I think I have got the picture on the
9Schlegelberger note because I have read Professor Evans
10and I have heard Mr Irving. You may say there are lots of
11other points to take, but I thought I would say that to
12you.
13MR RAMPTON: But there is one other main point, or two other
14main points. Whatever one may think of what was written
15in Hitler's War in 1991, if one were inclined to be
16generous to Mr Irving and say, well, he has mentioned the
17two in juxtaposition, therefore, one might think, though
18it is not explicit, what he has had to say about it since
19then and before is very much more categorical about, in
20his mind, the importance, or at any rate in his expression
21the importance, of this document. My Lord, I give an
22example from 1984:
23 "Finally, I think the most cardinal piece of
24proof in this entire story of what Hitler knew about what
25was going on, is a document that mysteriously vanished
26from the Nuremberg files in 1945. It is clear", and then
1there is a lot of stuff about the files. It says ----
2A. [Mr Irving] Can I enquire what this is that you are reading from?
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, can I ask that too?
4MR RAMPTON: I am sorry. I was trying to save time. It is
5file D3(i), tab 20, page 101. Has your Lordship got it?
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to wait to hear you read it out.
7A. [Mr Irving] What was the page number again?
8MR RAMPTON: It is page 101.
9A. [Mr Irving] I have it.
10Q. [Mr Rampton] It is one of these reprints I think of an Irving speech or
11presentation or lecture, whatever you call it. It is tab
1220, Mr Irving, with page 101 stamped at the bottom, the
13right-hand side which is page 281 of the document. My
14Lord, I will start again, I am sorry:
15 "Finally, I think the most cardinal piece of
16proof in this entire story of what Hitler knew about what
17was going on, a story of what Hitler knew about what was
18going on is a document that mysteriously vanished from the
19Nuremberg files in 1945. It is clear that it was in the
20files in August 1945 when they were sighted by the
21Americans in Berlin and catalogued". "Sighted", my Lord,
22is spelt with an S, it is "sighted". " ... when they were
23sighted by the Americans in Berlin and catalogued, because
24it appears as item 4 of a five-item list. It then
25vanished from the files by the time they reached Nuremberg
26for the Nuremberg trials, and so could not be produced
1there as evidence, and then reappeared now in the files of
2the Federal archives in Koblenz. That is the file that it
3is in, Reichsminister of Justice. The heading is: The
4Treatment of the Jews."
5A. [Mr Irving] The heading of the file.
6Q. [Mr Rampton] Oh, the file, not the document?
7A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
8Q. [Mr Rampton] It is a document. What is the German, the treatment of
9the Jews, on this file?
10A. [Mr Irving] "Behandlung des Juden", not "Behandlung Mischlinge".
11Q. [Mr Rampton] No, it is a general file no doubt. The Justice Ministry
12had problems to resolve in relation to the Jews, I am
13going to come to that in moment, but that is it right, is
14it not?
15A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
16Q. [Mr Rampton] "It is a document, a memo, on a telephone conversation
17inside the Ministry of Justice. From its placing in the
18file we know that this conversation is about March 1942,
19two months after the notorious Wunzie conference when all
20is supposed to have been put in train by Adolf Hitler.
21The Reichsminister, Hans Lammers, was the Chief of the
22German Civil Service. He would be rather like the Prime
23Minister in a normal society. The memo says:
24Reichsminister Lammers informs me that the Fuhrer has
25repeatedly told him that he wants a solution of the Jewish
26problem postponed until after the war is over. And it
1goes on about the fact that for this reason all this talk,
2all this jaw that is going on at present, is completely
3superfluous." Then in italics, and these are Mr Irving
4words: "Hitler has repeatedly said: He wants the solution
5to the Jewish problem postponed until after the war is
6over." Out of italics, new paragraph:
7 "Again this is a document which is of extreme
8embarrassment for the rival school of history. They
9cannot talk their way around it. They cannot talk their
10way out of it. They close their eyes and when they open
11them it is still there. It refuses to go away. Believe
12me, from this moment on right through to 1943 there are
13further documents showing Hitler interceding, acting,
14trying to stop preventing ..." My Lord, I will stop
15there.
16 You agree, Mr Irving ----
17A. [Mr Irving] Excuse me, you rather hinted that there is nothing more.
18There is another telephone conversation from Himmler to
19Heydrich on 20th April 1942, again from Hitler's
20headquarters. Himmler telephoned Heydrich: "No
21destruction of the gypsies". It is not without
22significance that you stopped just before I could read
23that out.
24Q. [Mr Rampton] It is 20th April.
25A. [Mr Irving] Yes, it is all part of the sequence.
26Q. [Mr Rampton] It is a bit like Himmler's telephone call to Heydrich of
130th November 1941, is it not?
2A. [Mr Irving] But what quality my records are, Mr Rampton, compared with
3the quality of the records that you are producing against
4me.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] Mr Irving, can we try to keep on the rails. We have not
6got much longer this afternoon. I want to finish this
7topic this afternoon.
8A. [Mr Irving] Are you implying I am going off the rails?
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we can move on.
10MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, that is characteristic, what I just
11read, of the importance which you attach to this little
12document, I mean little in terms of significance, not of
13size, this little document as evidence of, as you propose,
14the fact that Adolf Hitler neither ordered nor knew about
15any massacring of Jews, at any rate up until late 1943?
16A. [Mr Irving] It has taken Professor Evans eight pages to waffle his way
17out of it.
18Q. [Mr Rampton] That is cheap rhetoric, Mr Irving.
19A. [Mr Irving] It is not cheap rhetoric. It is exactly correct.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us pass on.
21MR RAMPTON: I am sorry if Professor Evans irritates you so
22much. You can take your feelings out on him when he is in
23the witness box. The position was this, was it not, at
24this time, Mr Irving, and this is my last but one thing
25for you to think about if you ever come to reconsider your
26position on this document. There was at this time a
1that it is in fact a highly significant statement because
2it is referring to postponing the Jewish question
3altogether until after the end of the war?
4A. [Mr Irving] My Lord, with respect, I would draw attention to the fact
5that in that very paragraph you are alluding to, I refer
6to the fact that it came immediately after the discussion
7about the half Jews and the mixed Jews.
8Q. [Mr Justice Gray] That is true. You think that is enough to tell the reader
9that this may not really be a very significant statement?
10A. [Mr Irving] Well, it tells the intelligent reader the kind of context
11in which this document was found. It has taken Professor
12Evans, I think, eight pages to analyse the value of this
13document. I did not have eight pages. I have one
14paragraph or less.
15MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, I must say I happen to believe his
16Lordship is right, that is very, what I shall say, weasley
17reference to the mischlinge question in Hitler's War.
18A. [Mr Irving] His Lordship did not say weasley reference. I do not
19think he used those words.
20Q. [Mr Rampton] I interpret what I hear or see, Mr Irving. I suggest to
21you that the reference to the mischlinge question in
22Hitler's War is not apt to lead the reader to suppose that
23you are saying, which you are plainly not, that the
24so-called Schlegelberger note has anything to do with the
25mischlinge question. Not directly.
26A. [Mr Irving] I will not read it out, my Lord, but it is the third
. P-184
1paragraph on page 464.
2MR RAMPTON: Yes, I know.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have it well in mind. I have in mind what
4you say in the last sentence of that paragraph.
5A. [Mr Irving] I rely simply on that paragraph and my own comment on it.
6MR RAMPTON: I think I have it here.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, if it helps -- it probably will
8not -- I think I have got the picture on the
9Schlegelberger note because I have read Professor Evans
10and I have heard Mr Irving. You may say there are lots of
11other points to take, but I thought I would say that to
12you.
13MR RAMPTON: But there is one other main point, or two other
14main points. Whatever one may think of what was written
15in Hitler's War in 1991, if one were inclined to be
16generous to Mr Irving and say, well, he has mentioned the
17two in juxtaposition, therefore, one might think, though
18it is not explicit, what he has had to say about it since
19then and before is very much more categorical about, in
20his mind, the importance, or at any rate in his expression
21the importance, of this document. My Lord, I give an
22example from 1984:
23 "Finally, I think the most cardinal piece of
24proof in this entire story of what Hitler knew about what
25was going on, is a document that mysteriously vanished
26from the Nuremberg files in 1945. It is clear", and then
. P-185
1there is a lot of stuff about the files. It says ----
2A. [Mr Irving] Can I enquire what this is that you are reading from?
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, can I ask that too?
4MR RAMPTON: I am sorry. I was trying to save time. It is
5file D3(i), tab 20, page 101. Has your Lordship got it?
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to wait to hear you read it out.
7A. [Mr Irving] What was the page number again?
8MR RAMPTON: It is page 101.
9A. [Mr Irving] I have it.
10Q. [Mr Rampton] It is one of these reprints I think of an Irving speech or
11presentation or lecture, whatever you call it. It is tab
1220, Mr Irving, with page 101 stamped at the bottom, the
13right-hand side which is page 281 of the document. My
14Lord, I will start again, I am sorry:
15 "Finally, I think the most cardinal piece of
16proof in this entire story of what Hitler knew about what
17was going on, a story of what Hitler knew about what was
18going on is a document that mysteriously vanished from the
19Nuremberg files in 1945. It is clear that it was in the
20files in August 1945 when they were sighted by the
21Americans in Berlin and catalogued". "Sighted", my Lord,
22is spelt with an S, it is "sighted". " ... when they were
23sighted by the Americans in Berlin and catalogued, because
24it appears as item 4 of a five-item list. It then
25vanished from the files by the time they reached Nuremberg
26for the Nuremberg trials, and so could not be produced
. P-186
1there as evidence, and then reappeared now in the files of
2the Federal archives in Koblenz. That is the file that it
3is in, Reichsminister of Justice. The heading is: The
4Treatment of the Jews."
5A. [Mr Irving] The heading of the file.
6Q. [Mr Rampton] Oh, the file, not the document?
7A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
8Q. [Mr Rampton] It is a document. What is the German, the treatment of
9the Jews, on this file?
10A. [Mr Irving] "Behandlung des Juden", not "Behandlung Mischlinge".
11Q. [Mr Rampton] No, it is a general file no doubt. The Justice Ministry
12had problems to resolve in relation to the Jews, I am
13going to come to that in moment, but that is it right, is
14it not?
15A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
16Q. [Mr Rampton] "It is a document, a memo, on a telephone conversation
17inside the Ministry of Justice. From its placing in the
18file we know that this conversation is about March 1942,
19two months after the notorious Wunzie conference when all
20is supposed to have been put in train by Adolf Hitler.
21The Reichsminister, Hans Lammers, was the Chief of the
22German Civil Service. He would be rather like the Prime
23Minister in a normal society. The memo says:
24Reichsminister Lammers informs me that the Fuhrer has
25repeatedly told him that he wants a solution of the Jewish
26problem postponed until after the war is over. And it
. P-187
1goes on about the fact that for this reason all this talk,
2all this jaw that is going on at present, is completely
3superfluous." Then in italics, and these are Mr Irving
4words: "Hitler has repeatedly said: He wants the solution
5to the Jewish problem postponed until after the war is
6over." Out of italics, new paragraph:
7 "Again this is a document which is of extreme
8embarrassment for the rival school of history. They
9cannot talk their way around it. They cannot talk their
10way out of it. They close their eyes and when they open
11them it is still there. It refuses to go away. Believe
12me, from this moment on right through to 1943 there are
13further documents showing Hitler interceding, acting,
14trying to stop preventing ..." My Lord, I will stop
15there.
16 You agree, Mr Irving ----
17A. [Mr Irving] Excuse me, you rather hinted that there is nothing more.
18There is another telephone conversation from Himmler to
19Heydrich on 20th April 1942, again from Hitler's
20headquarters. Himmler telephoned Heydrich: "No
21destruction of the gypsies". It is not without
22significance that you stopped just before I could read
23that out.
24Q. [Mr Rampton] It is 20th April.
25A. [Mr Irving] Yes, it is all part of the sequence.
26Q. [Mr Rampton] It is a bit like Himmler's telephone call to Heydrich of
. P-188
130th November 1941, is it not?
2A. [Mr Irving] But what quality my records are, Mr Rampton, compared with
3the quality of the records that you are producing against
4me.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] Mr Irving, can we try to keep on the rails. We have not
6got much longer this afternoon. I want to finish this
7topic this afternoon.
8A. [Mr Irving] Are you implying I am going off the rails?
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we can move on.
10MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, that is characteristic, what I just
11read, of the importance which you attach to this little
12document, I mean little in terms of significance, not of
13size, this little document as evidence of, as you propose,
14the fact that Adolf Hitler neither ordered nor knew about
15any massacring of Jews, at any rate up until late 1943?
16A. [Mr Irving] It has taken Professor Evans eight pages to waffle his way
17out of it.
18Q. [Mr Rampton] That is cheap rhetoric, Mr Irving.
19A. [Mr Irving] It is not cheap rhetoric. It is exactly correct.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us pass on.
21MR RAMPTON: I am sorry if Professor Evans irritates you so
22much. You can take your feelings out on him when he is in
23the witness box. The position was this, was it not, at
24this time, Mr Irving, and this is my last but one thing
25for you to think about if you ever come to reconsider your
26position on this document. There was at this time a
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| << 1-6 | < 178-183 | 190-195 > | 189-195 >> |