Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 7: Electronic Edition
Pages 188 - 193 of 199
| << 1-6 | < 182-187 | 194-199 > | 193-199 >> |
He is a poser. He is on all the presidential committees.
1cannot quite remember which camp he was in, my Lord.
2Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Is that so surprising?
3A. [Mr Irving] If I was in Auschwitz ----
4Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Tell me. I would like to know your answer.
5A. [Mr Irving] My Lord, if I was in Auschwitz I would remember it was
6Auschwitz and not Vukenvau or Bergen Belsen or Dachau.
7That is what his problem is, my Lord. The world is full
8of people come forward and claim to have been survivors of
9Auschwitz, most recently the notorious case of Benjamin
10Wilkomersky who was recently exposed by the BBC. I find
11these spurious -- I have the utmost sympathy for people
12genuinely suffered the torments and horrors of Auschwitz
13and these other camps, and let there be no doubt
14whatsoever about that, but the spurious survivors who are
15trying to cash in now by saying they too were there, that
16is the people I reserve this association of spurious
17survivors of the Holocaust, "the arseholes" as they
18referred to here. I agree that is a frightfully tasteless
19word to use and I would not normally use it in public.
20But I have the greatest contempt for these people who are
21trying to climb on the Holocaust bandwagon.
22MR RAMPTON: And it is not a laughing matter if they should do
23so, is it, Mr Irving?
24A. [Mr Irving] These unfortunates who claim they were there and never
25been anywhere near Auschwitz, yes.
26Q. [Mr Rampton] People who fraudulently, if there are any such people,
1people who fraudulently ----
2A. [Mr Irving] You do not believe the case of Mr Wilkomersky who said he
3had been there?
4Q. [Mr Rampton] I know well about the case of Mr Wilkomersky and I am not
5going to discuss ----
6A. [Mr Irving] So the word "if" is misplaced.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] It is not misplaced necessarily, Mr Irving. We are not
8going to, unless his Lordship tells us we are, going to
9examine the case of Mr Benjamin Wilkomersky, the Swiss
10orchestral musician, in this court, if you do not mind.
11Mr Irving, you will not answer my questions, I know,
12because you do not like them, but please answer: Why
13should such a serious matter as fraudulent Holocaust or
14Auschwitz pretence or posturing provoke laughter from your
15audience?
16A. [Mr Irving] Because there is something ludicrous about it, something
17pathetic about it, and the notion that a lot of these
18spurious survivors had been found out by the Russians of
19all people who were publishing the index cards, made known
20that they had found the index cards of everyone who was a
21genuine survivor which promoted the scurrying that went on
22for the few weeks after that. That is what provoked the
23laughter I am afraid.
24Q. [Mr Rampton] Can I suggest something completely different, and perhaps
25a little nearer to the truth of the matter. That remark,
26those remarks about spurious survivors, the remark about
1Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquidick, the remark over the
2page about arseholes, as we call them in this country,
3provoked the laughter they did because you were amongst an
4audience of anti-Semitics, these remarks were intended to
5provoke that kind of laughter. You can see that, if you
6like, from the very way in which they are phrased?
7A. [Mr Irving] I do not think so. I think I was amongst an audience of
8antiphonies.
9Q. [Mr Rampton] Did not you notice anything when you were talking about
10the way in which the Holocaust is used to protect
11frightful Jewish criminals like Boesky, did you not detect
12anything in the wording of that passage reminiscent of
13Dr Goebbels in it, in the way you relish the dishonesty of
14these Jewish people?
15A. [Mr Irving] I relish the dishonesty of the Jews?
16Q. [Mr Rampton] So it seems to me, Mr Irving, please comment on that?
17A. [Mr Irving] Now I am stuck here with a bit of a problem, because
18Jewish historians have made precisely the same comment
19I have. The Jewish community have made precisely the same
20comment that I have. Jewish sociologists have made
21precisely the same comment that I have. Are suggesting
22that only Jewish sociologists are entitled to make this
23kind of hostile comment about the reasons for the
24propagation of the Holocaust story, and that non-Jewish
25historians are to be excluded from this kind of comment?
26Q. [Mr Rampton] I did not ask you about the sober sentiment.
1A. [Mr Irving] And that they are at risk of being of compared with
2Dr Goebbels if they do?
3Q. [Mr Rampton] You never ever answer my question, Mr Irving.
4A. [Mr Irving] That was a very good answer, I believe.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] No, Mr Irving, because you do not listen or because you do
6not want to listen. My question was not about sober
7sentiment, ill-conceived though it may be. My question
8was about the wording, the language, of that passage that
9I read.
10A. [Mr Irving] Which particular words are we looking at here? Can you
11pick on any particular inflammatory words?
12Q. [Mr Rampton] Please go back to page 22. I am not going to read it out
13again.
14A. [Mr Irving] Just the Goebbels type of words.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] "Because if it is" down to the bottom of the page ending
16with the word "Jewish comment".
17A. [Mr Irving] Is the word "Jewish" a Goebbels word perhaps?
18Q. [Mr Rampton] No. Please just quietly re-read that section of what you
19said to yourself and tell me when you have got to the
20bottom of the page.
21A. [Mr Irving] I think I am entitled to know which words you consider are
22typical of Dr Goebbels.
23Q. [Mr Rampton] Will you please read it and then I will tell you.
24A. [Mr Irving] My Lord, will you direct him to identify the words he
25considers ----
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you know it by heart then you do not need
1to read it.
2A. [Mr Irving] I do not know it by heart.
3MR RAMPTON: The whole passage.
4A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] It is redolent of animosity, hostility, contempt, spite,
6malignantly, just like Dr Goebbels articles in Das Reich?
7A. [Mr Irving] Just like Winston Churchill talking about Adolf Hitler if
8you want to put it like that. Any number of people who
9are capable speakers are capable of using language.
10Q. [Mr Rampton] Absolutely, you have got it in one, Mr Irving.
11Mr Churchill rallied this country to the flag during the
12war by being spiteful and beastly about Adolf Hitler. The
13difference is, unlikely Dr Goebbels, Winston Churchill had
14a very good reason to be spiteful.
15A. [Mr Irving] But do not these particular gentleman who I have
16identified by name deserve our contempt, or are you
17supporter of these gentlemen who bilked ordinary people
18out of thousands pounds and their entire life savings as
19well.
20Q. [Mr Rampton] You do not have to give a list of names. All you need to
21say is the sober sentiment, if you believe it. The
22trouble is or one of the problems with the Holocaust is
23that it is sometimes apt to protect some Jewish people who
24have broken the law?
25A. [Mr Irving] No, I gave chapter and verse. These are specific
26instances which were probably in the news at the time, I
1think Ivan Boesky was in the news at that time, Mr
2Gutfreund, Mr Milken was certainly in the news at that
3that time.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on.
5MR RAMPTON: Yes I am trying to.
6A. [Mr Irving] If you cannot identify which particular words you are
7identifying with Dr. Goebbels ----
8Q. [Mr Rampton] I am looking at the flavour of the whole passages.
9A. [Mr Irving] Anybody can play that game, Mr Rampton can.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: So am I. We are moving on.
11MR RAMPTON: And so is his Lordship. I am grateful.
12A. [Mr Irving] Would you accuse Professor Peter Novac also using the
13language of Dr Goebbels in his ----
14Q. [Mr Rampton] No, because he does not write like that.
15A. [Mr Irving] He is a Professor and he is Jewish, so he is allowed to do
16it but non-Jews are excluded.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: You can deal with this in your own evidence,
18if you wish.
19A. [Mr Irving] I certainly shall, my Lord.
20MR RAMPTON: My Lord, this is Chelsea Town Hall. This is tab
2111 of the same file.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 2.
23MR RAMPTON: Page 2, yes. A couple of a very short passages on
24this page.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: The first one is by the upper hole punch.
26MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is right. Say you, MR IRVING:
1cannot quite remember which camp he was in, my Lord.
2Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Is that so surprising?
3A. [Mr Irving] If I was in Auschwitz ----
4Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Tell me. I would like to know your answer.
5A. [Mr Irving] My Lord, if I was in Auschwitz I would remember it was
6Auschwitz and not Vukenvau or Bergen Belsen or Dachau.
7That is what his problem is, my Lord. The world is full
8of people come forward and claim to have been survivors of
9Auschwitz, most recently the notorious case of Benjamin
10Wilkomersky who was recently exposed by the BBC. I find
11these spurious -- I have the utmost sympathy for people
12genuinely suffered the torments and horrors of Auschwitz
13and these other camps, and let there be no doubt
14whatsoever about that, but the spurious survivors who are
15trying to cash in now by saying they too were there, that
16is the people I reserve this association of spurious
17survivors of the Holocaust, "the arseholes" as they
18referred to here. I agree that is a frightfully tasteless
19word to use and I would not normally use it in public.
20But I have the greatest contempt for these people who are
21trying to climb on the Holocaust bandwagon.
22MR RAMPTON: And it is not a laughing matter if they should do
23so, is it, Mr Irving?
24A. [Mr Irving] These unfortunates who claim they were there and never
25been anywhere near Auschwitz, yes.
26Q. [Mr Rampton] People who fraudulently, if there are any such people,
. P-188
1people who fraudulently ----
2A. [Mr Irving] You do not believe the case of Mr Wilkomersky who said he
3had been there?
4Q. [Mr Rampton] I know well about the case of Mr Wilkomersky and I am not
5going to discuss ----
6A. [Mr Irving] So the word "if" is misplaced.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] It is not misplaced necessarily, Mr Irving. We are not
8going to, unless his Lordship tells us we are, going to
9examine the case of Mr Benjamin Wilkomersky, the Swiss
10orchestral musician, in this court, if you do not mind.
11Mr Irving, you will not answer my questions, I know,
12because you do not like them, but please answer: Why
13should such a serious matter as fraudulent Holocaust or
14Auschwitz pretence or posturing provoke laughter from your
15audience?
16A. [Mr Irving] Because there is something ludicrous about it, something
17pathetic about it, and the notion that a lot of these
18spurious survivors had been found out by the Russians of
19all people who were publishing the index cards, made known
20that they had found the index cards of everyone who was a
21genuine survivor which promoted the scurrying that went on
22for the few weeks after that. That is what provoked the
23laughter I am afraid.
24Q. [Mr Rampton] Can I suggest something completely different, and perhaps
25a little nearer to the truth of the matter. That remark,
26those remarks about spurious survivors, the remark about
. P-189
1Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquidick, the remark over the
2page about arseholes, as we call them in this country,
3provoked the laughter they did because you were amongst an
4audience of anti-Semitics, these remarks were intended to
5provoke that kind of laughter. You can see that, if you
6like, from the very way in which they are phrased?
7A. [Mr Irving] I do not think so. I think I was amongst an audience of
8antiphonies.
9Q. [Mr Rampton] Did not you notice anything when you were talking about
10the way in which the Holocaust is used to protect
11frightful Jewish criminals like Boesky, did you not detect
12anything in the wording of that passage reminiscent of
13Dr Goebbels in it, in the way you relish the dishonesty of
14these Jewish people?
15A. [Mr Irving] I relish the dishonesty of the Jews?
16Q. [Mr Rampton] So it seems to me, Mr Irving, please comment on that?
17A. [Mr Irving] Now I am stuck here with a bit of a problem, because
18Jewish historians have made precisely the same comment
19I have. The Jewish community have made precisely the same
20comment that I have. Jewish sociologists have made
21precisely the same comment that I have. Are suggesting
22that only Jewish sociologists are entitled to make this
23kind of hostile comment about the reasons for the
24propagation of the Holocaust story, and that non-Jewish
25historians are to be excluded from this kind of comment?
26Q. [Mr Rampton] I did not ask you about the sober sentiment.
. P-190
1A. [Mr Irving] And that they are at risk of being of compared with
2Dr Goebbels if they do?
3Q. [Mr Rampton] You never ever answer my question, Mr Irving.
4A. [Mr Irving] That was a very good answer, I believe.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] No, Mr Irving, because you do not listen or because you do
6not want to listen. My question was not about sober
7sentiment, ill-conceived though it may be. My question
8was about the wording, the language, of that passage that
9I read.
10A. [Mr Irving] Which particular words are we looking at here? Can you
11pick on any particular inflammatory words?
12Q. [Mr Rampton] Please go back to page 22. I am not going to read it out
13again.
14A. [Mr Irving] Just the Goebbels type of words.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] "Because if it is" down to the bottom of the page ending
16with the word "Jewish comment".
17A. [Mr Irving] Is the word "Jewish" a Goebbels word perhaps?
18Q. [Mr Rampton] No. Please just quietly re-read that section of what you
19said to yourself and tell me when you have got to the
20bottom of the page.
21A. [Mr Irving] I think I am entitled to know which words you consider are
22typical of Dr Goebbels.
23Q. [Mr Rampton] Will you please read it and then I will tell you.
24A. [Mr Irving] My Lord, will you direct him to identify the words he
25considers ----
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you know it by heart then you do not need
. P-191
1to read it.
2A. [Mr Irving] I do not know it by heart.
3MR RAMPTON: The whole passage.
4A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] It is redolent of animosity, hostility, contempt, spite,
6malignantly, just like Dr Goebbels articles in Das Reich?
7A. [Mr Irving] Just like Winston Churchill talking about Adolf Hitler if
8you want to put it like that. Any number of people who
9are capable speakers are capable of using language.
10Q. [Mr Rampton] Absolutely, you have got it in one, Mr Irving.
11Mr Churchill rallied this country to the flag during the
12war by being spiteful and beastly about Adolf Hitler. The
13difference is, unlikely Dr Goebbels, Winston Churchill had
14a very good reason to be spiteful.
15A. [Mr Irving] But do not these particular gentleman who I have
16identified by name deserve our contempt, or are you
17supporter of these gentlemen who bilked ordinary people
18out of thousands pounds and their entire life savings as
19well.
20Q. [Mr Rampton] You do not have to give a list of names. All you need to
21say is the sober sentiment, if you believe it. The
22trouble is or one of the problems with the Holocaust is
23that it is sometimes apt to protect some Jewish people who
24have broken the law?
25A. [Mr Irving] No, I gave chapter and verse. These are specific
26instances which were probably in the news at the time, I
. P-192
1think Ivan Boesky was in the news at that time, Mr
2Gutfreund, Mr Milken was certainly in the news at that
3that time.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on.
5MR RAMPTON: Yes I am trying to.
6A. [Mr Irving] If you cannot identify which particular words you are
7identifying with Dr. Goebbels ----
8Q. [Mr Rampton] I am looking at the flavour of the whole passages.
9A. [Mr Irving] Anybody can play that game, Mr Rampton can.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: So am I. We are moving on.
11MR RAMPTON: And so is his Lordship. I am grateful.
12A. [Mr Irving] Would you accuse Professor Peter Novac also using the
13language of Dr Goebbels in his ----
14Q. [Mr Rampton] No, because he does not write like that.
15A. [Mr Irving] He is a Professor and he is Jewish, so he is allowed to do
16it but non-Jews are excluded.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: You can deal with this in your own evidence,
18if you wish.
19A. [Mr Irving] I certainly shall, my Lord.
20MR RAMPTON: My Lord, this is Chelsea Town Hall. This is tab
2111 of the same file.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 2.
23MR RAMPTON: Page 2, yes. A couple of a very short passages on
24this page.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: The first one is by the upper hole punch.
26MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is right. Say you, MR IRVING:
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