Irving v. Lipstadt

 1    "If you look at my great Adolf Hitler biography
 2here, this bumper Adolf Hitler biography that we have only
 3just published, in fact it literally arrived off the
 4printing presses today, you won't find the Holocaust
 5mentioned in one line, not even a footnote. Why should we
 6if something did not happen and you don't even dignify it
 7with a footnote". That is in plain terms an assertion by
 8you that the Holocaust did not happen?
 9A. [Mr Irving]     We have not even heard the word "Holocaust".
10MR JUSTICE GRAY:    This is a speech you made, is it not?
11MR RAMPTON:    I am so sorry, Mr Irving, look at the penultimate
12line of the passage I have just read..
13A. [Mr Irving]     Am I looking at the wrong passage?
14MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I think I it must, because it starts, "if You
15look at my great Adolf Hitler biography", which sounds as
16if it could be you speaking.
17A. [Mr Irving]     I see right, yes.
18Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Did you say that?
19A. [Mr Irving]     Well, obviously the reference, as we have now found out,
20the word "Holocaust" has been taken out of the second
21volume, yes. You will not find "Holocaust" mentioned in
22this book.
23Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Because it did not happen, that is what you are saying?
24A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I do not want to quibble about this too much, but we
25do not really know what we are talking about when we are
26saying if something did not happen. I know his Lordship

.    P-194

---

 1will interrupt and say straightaway you are referring to
 2the Holocaust, but we do not know how much of a pause
 3there is there. We do not know what emphasis is made
 4here. We have to look at the whole speech. The
 5references later on you will see to the bars of soap and
 6so on, which clearly did not happen because that has now
 7been admitted. I mean that is what we are building up
 8to. This is a topic sentence.
 9MR RAMPTON:    I know it is late but I really do not think you
10are doing yourself justice. Look down to the bottom page
11at 001425.
12A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13Q. [Mr Rampton]     Read it out loud, will you?
14A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am looking at a paragraph which you want skipped.
15Q. [Mr Rampton]     No.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY:    What is there in there that you really derive
17any assistance from?
18A. [Mr Irving]     "Two years from now nobody in the world will believe in
19these absurd legends any longer. They already don't
20believe in the absurd legends of Jewish concentration camp
21prisoners being turned into bars of soap, because Jad
22Vaschen has now formally admitted that that was a lie."
23So this is what I am talking about, if things do not
24happen they do not deserve a footnote. So I am being
25specific in what follows by what I mean.
26MR RAMPTON:    Mr Irving, I know you like your platform and I am

.    P-195

---

 1sure you want to get into the newspapers.
 2A. [Mr Irving]     Can I now interrupt with the utmost respect, Mr Rampton,
 3if you move that sentence "if something didn't happen and
 4you don't even dignify it with a footnote", the beginning
 5of the following paragraph, then it becomes the famous
 6topic sentence of which I have spoken earlier giving the
 7topic of what follows in the following paragraph and that
 8is what it is. It has been put deliberately into the
 9paragraph above to make it look as though it is applying
10to the word "Holocaust".
11Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now look, Mr Irving, we can go a lot quicker if you just
12occasionally ----
13A. [Mr Irving]     I know you do not like these answers because of course it
14is a total answer to what you just said, Mr Rampton.
15Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is a matter for his Lordship.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I heard the answer.
17MR RAMPTON:    I think it is one of the worst answers you have
18given and that is saying something, Mr Irving.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY:    That is comment and I think we will move on
20to the lower quote.
21A. [Mr Irving]     Maybe his Lordship thinks differently but his Lordship has
22heard from me about topic sentences and that is a clear
23example of a topic.
24MR RAMPTON:    If you will please stop talking for one minute I
25will show ----
26A. [Mr Irving]     I was about to say the same to you.

.    P-196

---

 1Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- I will show you why it is such a rotten answer. Read
 2the first sentence of the last paragraph out loud.
 3A. [Mr Irving]     "The biggest lie of the lot, the blood libel on the German
 4people, because people were hanged for this, as I call it,
 5is the lie that the Germans had factories of death with
 6gas chambers in which they liquidated millions of their
 7opponents."
 8Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you very much, Mr Irving.
 9MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I think that is a convenient point at which
10to break off.
11MR RAMPTON:    I just want to take one more ----
12A. [Mr Irving]     Truth is an absolute justification of that remark of
13course.
14MR RAMPTON:    --- little line from this transcript.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I did not know there was any more. I am
16sorry.
17MR RAMPTON:    There is one line on page 4.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes, page 6. Page 4. I think there is also
19something on page 6.
20MR RAMPTON:    There is. I will just tell your Lordship which it
21is. I do not need to read that out yet again.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Page 4.
23MR RAMPTON:    Page 4, the last line of the second paragraph, the
24last sentence: "So Fred Leuchter is poisoned for the whole
25of the Holocaust legend." The whole of the Holocaust
26legend. "The whole of the Holocaust legend" includes all

.    P-197

---

 1alleged gas chambers anywhere in Nazi occupied Europe,
 2does it not?
 3A. [Mr Irving]     He is bad news in the sense, as I said in the earlier
 4speech, once people have heard the data that Fred Leuchter
 5brought back, the forensic laboratory results, they go
 6away thinking, they begin asking awkward questions. That
 7is what is meant by that sentence and certainly no more.
 8MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes.
 9MR RAMPTON:    My Lord, if that is convenient, there is one
10matter I wish to raise.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes. I think it is. I am just looking to
12see whether we ought to deal with the passage I have
13marked on page 6.
14MR RAMPTON:    Yes, very well.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY:    It is about just below the lower hole punch.
16I have marked it presumably because you relied on it in
17your Summary of Case.
18MR RAMPTON:    Yes. Page 6, last paragraph, Mr Irving. You say
19about five lines down: "If I can just dot the i's cross
20the t's to some of these details of details of details.
21He mentioned that after Fred Leuchter did his truly epoch
22making investigation of the gas chambers" plural "at
23Auschwitz, the forensic laboratory tests which yielded the
24extraordinary result which converted me, made me into a
25hardcore disbeliever."
26    Yes? I will read on if you like.

.    P-198

---

 1MR JUSTICE GRAY:    It does not affect the context, the sense of
 2it.
 3MR RAMPTON:    It does not affect the context?
 4A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think it takes it very much further, that
 5sentence, my Lord.
 6MR RAMPTON:    You are by this date, are you not, November 28th
 71991, a hardcore disbeliever in the whole of the Holocaust
 8proposition?
 9A. [Mr Irving]     You are incorrigible, Mr Rampton. We have just been
10talking about the gas chambers.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I think we will leave the evidence there
12because there may be some more
13(Administrative Discussion)
14MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Monday 10.30.
15< (The witness stood down)
16(The Court adjourned until Monday, 24th January 2000)
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26

.    P-199

---