Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 8: Electronic Edition
Pages 186 - 191 of 191
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I do not think I actually said that. Certainly you asked
1it, except the introduction. I merely provided the
2publishing facilities.
3MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I do not think I can usefully ask any
4more questions in relation to Auschwitz at all, unless
5I am told that I must.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think that is right.
7MR RAMPTON: I really do. I will come back now finally to
8where I started I think last week.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: My only hesitation is, and it is a problem
10because Mr Irving is in person, that he plainly is
11wanting, as I understand it, to say there are various
12later developments post Leuchter which confirmed in his
13original conclusion that Leuchter was really a dramatic
14new piece of evidence which really did clinch the argument
15against the Holocaust affirmers, as it were. Do you want
16to leave that hanging in the air until re-examination?
17You do not have to ask any questions, but there is
18something to be said for seeing ----
19MR RAMPTON: About the new evidence?
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
21MR RAMPTON: I have a question about the new evidence, because
22he mentioned, I think, really only one specifically which
23was a report by somebody called I think Germer Rudolf?
24A. [Mr Irving] The Rudolf report.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was not only that, but certainly that was
26one of the things.
1MR RAMPTON: What else is there, Mr Irving?
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Something in 1945, Auschwitz.
3MR RAMPTON: 45 was the Polish report we looked at.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure it was.
5A. [Mr Irving] There was no another Polish after the Leuchter report.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, in 1945.
7A. [Mr Irving] No, in 1989.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was there not another one in 1945 that you
9are relying on.
10MR RAMPTON: No, the only 1945 report is the report your
11Lordship has seen. There was a preliminary report by the
12forensic people in about 1991 in response to Leuchter. It
13was unsatisfactory. They redid it under Professor
14Markovic's aegis and that produced positive results.
15A. [Mr Irving] The first one was politically incorrect, so they put it
16away in the safe and they produced a new version.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: You say that. When are you proposing to deal
18with that?
19A. [Mr Irving] My Lord I am going to have to ask for instructions from
20your Lordship as to how I can put this material. I was
21proposing to do this kind of thing in the -- I was going
22to put these documents to the experts and I thought that
23would be an appropriate way of doing it.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not disagreeing about that, but you
25obviously want to say something on these topics.
26A. [Mr Irving] I certainly do not like leaving it.
1Q. [Mr Rampton] I am content to deal with it that way.
2MR RAMPTON: I am too. The only thing I am not content about,
3since I have finished maybe I can say this now, I am not
4content about is (A) I have not had time and nor, I dare
5say, has Professor van Pelt who has been sitting in court,
6to review the new material we were given this morning; and
7(B) I have never seen the Rudolf report because it is not
8in Mr Irving discovery.
9A. [Mr Irving] Yes, it is.
10Q. [Mr Rampton] I am told it is not.
11A. [Mr Irving] If it is not then I humbly apologise. It certainly should
12have been, and I will provide copies immediately.
13MR RAMPTON: Miss Rogers is the most reliable person in the
14world when it comes to these matters and she says it is
15not. So I am going to rely on her for the moment.
16A. [Mr Irving] I will eat humble pie today provided ----
17MR RAMPTON: If reliance is to be placed on it then we need
18time to look at it.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor van Pelt needs time particularly
20because he will be the one who has to deal with it. How
21easy would it be for you to dig it out?
22A. [Mr Irving] I can have it couriered around this afternoon.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: That would be helpful. I think he ought to
24have it.
25MR RAMPTON: My Lord, that leads to my final enquiry of your
26Lordship. Other things being equal I would want Professor
1van Pelt to go into the witness box sometime tomorrow, but
2plainly if he does Mr Irving must keep off the new
3material until Professor van Pelt has had a chance ----
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: He may have time because Mr Irving has just
5said he is going to be able to get it round this
6afternoon.
7A. [Mr Irving] My Lord, there are two things. The Rudolf report is one
8and also on your Lordship's instructions I have allowed
9the Defence sight of an expert critique I received from an
10architect on his report.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that what you gave me this morning?
12A. [Mr Irving] It is what I gave your Lordship this morning, yes.
13MR RAMPTON: It has no name on it.
14A. [Mr Irving] You are not entitled to this man's name, with respect.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am afraid that is a matter for me and I do
16not at the moment understand why you say that.
17A. [Mr Irving] This man is obviously in a leading position in the world
18of architecture and he is, frankly, frightened because he
19knows what the people backing the Defendants in this
20action are capable of doing to people of stature.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Hang on, are you proposing to call him to
22give evidence?
23A. [Mr Irving] No, I am not. He is purely a person who has advised me in
24private on some of the technical matters, the
25architectural matters, which are involved in this case, as
26the nature of correspondence.
1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then, subject to Mr Rampton, I think you can
2put the propositions contained in whichever document you
3are talking about, because I do not think I have seen it,
4and I do not think there is any reason why I should compel
5his identity to be disclosed.
6MR RAMPTON: Absolutely not. As I now understand it, all
7I think has happened is that we have been given a brief
8for cross-examination.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, which is what you asked for and you have
10now got it.
11MR RAMPTON: Yes. I do not think Mr Irving is asking your
12Lordship to receive it as evidence, because you cannot do
13that.
14A. [Mr Irving] No, it is not, but your Lordship did say that this kind of
15thing was disclosable to the Defendants.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am bound to say I was under a slight
17misapprehension. I thought you were talking about
18material that was going to be led by you through the mouth
19of an expert witness. If I had known it was simply ----
20A. [Mr Irving] It is more of the nature of correspondence between
21ourselves.
22Q. [Mr Rampton] --- simply material for you to cross-examine on, I think I
23would not have had said you had to hand it over.
24A. [Mr Irving] We have no reason not to show it to them. It is just that
25unfortunately he have now been obliged to disclose some of
26our cards.
1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think there may have been a
2misunderstanding.
3MR RAMPTON: I misunderstood. I thought what we were being
4given was some sort of expert's report. As it is not so,
5may I in front of Mr Irving endorse what your Lordship
6said. I do not want to see anything which has not been
7tendered in evidence or otherwise relied on.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: You hear that, Mr Irving?
9A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
10MR RAMPTON: My Lord, with luck Professor van Pelt can give
11evidence tomorrow. He is here.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that. Then you are going to resume
13again afterwards.
14MR RAMPTON: Yes, I am then going back to Irving stuff.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we have the discussion tomorrow about
16the future programme? I suspect you would rather do that
17then than now. Mr Irving has had a long day just as you
18have.
19MR RAMPTON: I need to take instructions.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I thought, yes. So I think we
21will adjourn a little earlier, unless there is anything
22else that can usefully be covered.
23< (The witness stood down)
24(The Court adjourned until the following day)
25
26
1it, except the introduction. I merely provided the
2publishing facilities.
3MR RAMPTON: My Lord, I do not think I can usefully ask any
4more questions in relation to Auschwitz at all, unless
5I am told that I must.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think that is right.
7MR RAMPTON: I really do. I will come back now finally to
8where I started I think last week.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: My only hesitation is, and it is a problem
10because Mr Irving is in person, that he plainly is
11wanting, as I understand it, to say there are various
12later developments post Leuchter which confirmed in his
13original conclusion that Leuchter was really a dramatic
14new piece of evidence which really did clinch the argument
15against the Holocaust affirmers, as it were. Do you want
16to leave that hanging in the air until re-examination?
17You do not have to ask any questions, but there is
18something to be said for seeing ----
19MR RAMPTON: About the new evidence?
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
21MR RAMPTON: I have a question about the new evidence, because
22he mentioned, I think, really only one specifically which
23was a report by somebody called I think Germer Rudolf?
24A. [Mr Irving] The Rudolf report.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was not only that, but certainly that was
26one of the things.
. P-186
1MR RAMPTON: What else is there, Mr Irving?
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Something in 1945, Auschwitz.
3MR RAMPTON: 45 was the Polish report we looked at.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure it was.
5A. [Mr Irving] There was no another Polish after the Leuchter report.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, in 1945.
7A. [Mr Irving] No, in 1989.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was there not another one in 1945 that you
9are relying on.
10MR RAMPTON: No, the only 1945 report is the report your
11Lordship has seen. There was a preliminary report by the
12forensic people in about 1991 in response to Leuchter. It
13was unsatisfactory. They redid it under Professor
14Markovic's aegis and that produced positive results.
15A. [Mr Irving] The first one was politically incorrect, so they put it
16away in the safe and they produced a new version.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: You say that. When are you proposing to deal
18with that?
19A. [Mr Irving] My Lord I am going to have to ask for instructions from
20your Lordship as to how I can put this material. I was
21proposing to do this kind of thing in the -- I was going
22to put these documents to the experts and I thought that
23would be an appropriate way of doing it.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not disagreeing about that, but you
25obviously want to say something on these topics.
26A. [Mr Irving] I certainly do not like leaving it.
. P-187
1Q. [Mr Rampton] I am content to deal with it that way.
2MR RAMPTON: I am too. The only thing I am not content about,
3since I have finished maybe I can say this now, I am not
4content about is (A) I have not had time and nor, I dare
5say, has Professor van Pelt who has been sitting in court,
6to review the new material we were given this morning; and
7(B) I have never seen the Rudolf report because it is not
8in Mr Irving discovery.
9A. [Mr Irving] Yes, it is.
10Q. [Mr Rampton] I am told it is not.
11A. [Mr Irving] If it is not then I humbly apologise. It certainly should
12have been, and I will provide copies immediately.
13MR RAMPTON: Miss Rogers is the most reliable person in the
14world when it comes to these matters and she says it is
15not. So I am going to rely on her for the moment.
16A. [Mr Irving] I will eat humble pie today provided ----
17MR RAMPTON: If reliance is to be placed on it then we need
18time to look at it.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor van Pelt needs time particularly
20because he will be the one who has to deal with it. How
21easy would it be for you to dig it out?
22A. [Mr Irving] I can have it couriered around this afternoon.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: That would be helpful. I think he ought to
24have it.
25MR RAMPTON: My Lord, that leads to my final enquiry of your
26Lordship. Other things being equal I would want Professor
. P-188
1van Pelt to go into the witness box sometime tomorrow, but
2plainly if he does Mr Irving must keep off the new
3material until Professor van Pelt has had a chance ----
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: He may have time because Mr Irving has just
5said he is going to be able to get it round this
6afternoon.
7A. [Mr Irving] My Lord, there are two things. The Rudolf report is one
8and also on your Lordship's instructions I have allowed
9the Defence sight of an expert critique I received from an
10architect on his report.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that what you gave me this morning?
12A. [Mr Irving] It is what I gave your Lordship this morning, yes.
13MR RAMPTON: It has no name on it.
14A. [Mr Irving] You are not entitled to this man's name, with respect.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am afraid that is a matter for me and I do
16not at the moment understand why you say that.
17A. [Mr Irving] This man is obviously in a leading position in the world
18of architecture and he is, frankly, frightened because he
19knows what the people backing the Defendants in this
20action are capable of doing to people of stature.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Hang on, are you proposing to call him to
22give evidence?
23A. [Mr Irving] No, I am not. He is purely a person who has advised me in
24private on some of the technical matters, the
25architectural matters, which are involved in this case, as
26the nature of correspondence.
. P-189
1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then, subject to Mr Rampton, I think you can
2put the propositions contained in whichever document you
3are talking about, because I do not think I have seen it,
4and I do not think there is any reason why I should compel
5his identity to be disclosed.
6MR RAMPTON: Absolutely not. As I now understand it, all
7I think has happened is that we have been given a brief
8for cross-examination.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, which is what you asked for and you have
10now got it.
11MR RAMPTON: Yes. I do not think Mr Irving is asking your
12Lordship to receive it as evidence, because you cannot do
13that.
14A. [Mr Irving] No, it is not, but your Lordship did say that this kind of
15thing was disclosable to the Defendants.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am bound to say I was under a slight
17misapprehension. I thought you were talking about
18material that was going to be led by you through the mouth
19of an expert witness. If I had known it was simply ----
20A. [Mr Irving] It is more of the nature of correspondence between
21ourselves.
22Q. [Mr Rampton] --- simply material for you to cross-examine on, I think I
23would not have had said you had to hand it over.
24A. [Mr Irving] We have no reason not to show it to them. It is just that
25unfortunately he have now been obliged to disclose some of
26our cards.
. P-190
1MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think there may have been a
2misunderstanding.
3MR RAMPTON: I misunderstood. I thought what we were being
4given was some sort of expert's report. As it is not so,
5may I in front of Mr Irving endorse what your Lordship
6said. I do not want to see anything which has not been
7tendered in evidence or otherwise relied on.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: You hear that, Mr Irving?
9A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
10MR RAMPTON: My Lord, with luck Professor van Pelt can give
11evidence tomorrow. He is here.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that. Then you are going to resume
13again afterwards.
14MR RAMPTON: Yes, I am then going back to Irving stuff.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we have the discussion tomorrow about
16the future programme? I suspect you would rather do that
17then than now. Mr Irving has had a long day just as you
18have.
19MR RAMPTON: I need to take instructions.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I thought, yes. So I think we
21will adjourn a little earlier, unless there is anything
22else that can usefully be covered.
23< (The witness stood down)
24(The Court adjourned until the following day)
25
26
. P-191
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