Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 9: Electronic Edition
Pages 189 - 194 of 194
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The gas chamber, the installations were removed. The
1the Bolshevik hoard from the East, they were creating gas
2type air raid shelters in Auschwitz at that moment. They
3had started constructing these things just before. So
4there was still some local, small-term, small site
5construction activity going on. This was very primitive,
6but certainly the SS would have been able in November
71944, even December 1944, to repair the roof and to remove
8the evidence of the holes. The invasion, the offensive,
9only started on January 12th, as we have established
10before.
11Q. [Mr Irving] Professor van Pelt, do you know what the phrase in
12architecture, "fair face finish" or "fair face concrete"
13refers to?
14A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I can guess, yes.
15Q. [Mr Irving] It means concrete which is left bare to the public. Are
16you aware that this is one of the most expensive finishes
17that an architect can specify?
18A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
19Q. [Mr Irving] Because -- can you speculate as to the reason why it is so
20expensive?
21A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Because it is very difficult to get a very even texture.
22Q. [Mr Irving] I know this. I worked for three years in a concrete gang
23with John Lang working my way through university, so I
24know how difficult it was to get the concrete right. If
25it was not properly vibrated and you had a cavity, you had
26to take down the whole beam because you cannot plaster
1over it in a way that it does not show. Is this not so?
2A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
3Q. [Mr Irving] So you would expect that it would be unlikely that these
4panic stricken Germans could have managed to trowel the
5finish on both the gravel covered side of the roof and the
6underside of the roof in such a way that nothing would
7show, you would not see what is called a drying line
8around the circle where the hatch had once been. Is that
9correct, you would expect to find a drying line?
10A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] If you would have had this kind of concrete, but, sadly
11enough, one does not have that kind of concrete in the
12ceiling of morgue No. 1 of crematorium (ii). There is
13actually one little place you can go under it, and this is
14where Mr Leuchter derived some of his samples, and I have
15been also in that place and, in fact, the formwork is a
16complete mess. It is a very irregular formwork. You
17cannot draw any conclusion from that formwork one way or
18the other of what kind of hole was located where.
19Q. [Mr Irving] Is it not so that when you have formwork made of wooden
20planks, the concrete retains the grain of the wood; you
21can see the grain of the wood and that too would show that
22you could not plaster over the holes in such a way that
23Holocaust deniers years later would not find them?
24A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes, but there is one problem, and that is the column
25which remains. There is one column remains and it is the
26second column. The second column of the crematorium
1remains. So it is not a column to which one of these mesh
2columns was attached. The mesh columns were attached to
3the first, the third, the fifth and the seventh.
4Q. [Mr Irving] Fortuitously, the one that remains was the one that did
5not have the wire mesh?
6A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes, or sadly so for your case maybe. So, in any case, we
7cannot draw any conclusions from the nature of the
8formwork around that column because that is not a column
9where the wire-mesh column was. So, I mean ----
10Q. [Mr Irving] I am talking about the ceiling.
11A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] There is a one little bit of ceiling only visible. The
12amount of ceiling is only a few square metre there. You
13can crawl under the roof of Leichenkeller No. 1. I have
14done it and I have looked at that roof.
15Q. [Mr Irving] Professor van Pelt, would it surprise you to hear that the
16Poles have made 400 photographs of the underside of that
17roof in an attempt to map every square inch of it looking
18for those holes and they failed?
19A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] But the problem is that holes are not under that part.
20Q. [Mr Irving] The holes are not under that part?
21A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I mean, the roof falls back into the ground.
22Q. [Mr Irving] Here is a map of the roof as it now is. This is the large
23yellow page that I gave his Lordship, right? There are no
24holes in that. It has been mapped from top and bottom.
25The only holes that exist are where it has been punched
26through in recent years by people curious about what is
1going on underneath, and you can see that is the case
2because the steel reinforcing bars have been bent back,
3and the one place where the pillar has also broken
4through. The holes that your eyewitnesses refer to, as
5you correctly say, cannot be found for the simple reason
6they were never there and there is not the slightest trace
7of them being there, and I also draw your attention, my
8Lord, if you go back to page 184 ----
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
10MR IRVING: --- about 10 lines down: "The showers were fitted
11to small blocks of wood sealed into the concrete roof of
12the gas chamber". We have probably all seen these little
13blocks of wood that get embedded in the concrete when it
14is poured, so that things can be screwed to those little
15blocks of wood. Those little blocks of wood also are not
16in the ceiling, as you can see, my Lord, as I gave you two
17photographs in a heap this morning. I gave your Lordship
18two photographs, colour photographs, in a heap this
19morning.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am just underlining that.
21MR IRVING: I cannot find mine.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have got ----
23MR IRVING: Yes.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- the ones you gave me.
25MR IRVING: One is of the underside of the concrete roof and
26you can see -- exactly, my Lord -- you can see the
1condition of the concrete roof underneath this messy slab
2is in. You can see the wooden markings on the concrete
3where formwork was all these years ago when they built
4crematorium No. 2 in Auschwitz. You can appreciate that
5if there had been those holes in the roof, which are the
6cardinal linchpin of the Defence in this action, they
7would have been found by now. They have not found them,
8and so their eyewitness evidence collapses because these
9people are exposed for the liars they were.
10 My Lord, it is four minutes to 4. Unless
11Mr Rampton wishes to say something to repair the damage at
12this point ----
13A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] My Lord, may I respond to this?
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but not until 10 be 30 tomorrow
15morning. What I would be like to know from you then is
16what evidence there is from the likes of Taiber about the
17way in which the pellets were inserted into the gas
18chamber. In other words, are there other witnesses who
19describe that?
20A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] There are other witnesses.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will have to deal with Kuhler as well,
22will we not, Mr Irving?
23MR IRVING: I think so, my Lord, to have a look at the
24wire-mesh columns.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I hope you will have enough time. If you get
26into difficulties I will be sympathetic. 10.30 tomorrow.
1< (The witness stood down)
2(The Court adjourned until the following day)
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1the Bolshevik hoard from the East, they were creating gas
2type air raid shelters in Auschwitz at that moment. They
3had started constructing these things just before. So
4there was still some local, small-term, small site
5construction activity going on. This was very primitive,
6but certainly the SS would have been able in November
71944, even December 1944, to repair the roof and to remove
8the evidence of the holes. The invasion, the offensive,
9only started on January 12th, as we have established
10before.
11Q. [Mr Irving] Professor van Pelt, do you know what the phrase in
12architecture, "fair face finish" or "fair face concrete"
13refers to?
14A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I can guess, yes.
15Q. [Mr Irving] It means concrete which is left bare to the public. Are
16you aware that this is one of the most expensive finishes
17that an architect can specify?
18A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
19Q. [Mr Irving] Because -- can you speculate as to the reason why it is so
20expensive?
21A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Because it is very difficult to get a very even texture.
22Q. [Mr Irving] I know this. I worked for three years in a concrete gang
23with John Lang working my way through university, so I
24know how difficult it was to get the concrete right. If
25it was not properly vibrated and you had a cavity, you had
26to take down the whole beam because you cannot plaster
. P-189
1over it in a way that it does not show. Is this not so?
2A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
3Q. [Mr Irving] So you would expect that it would be unlikely that these
4panic stricken Germans could have managed to trowel the
5finish on both the gravel covered side of the roof and the
6underside of the roof in such a way that nothing would
7show, you would not see what is called a drying line
8around the circle where the hatch had once been. Is that
9correct, you would expect to find a drying line?
10A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] If you would have had this kind of concrete, but, sadly
11enough, one does not have that kind of concrete in the
12ceiling of morgue No. 1 of crematorium (ii). There is
13actually one little place you can go under it, and this is
14where Mr Leuchter derived some of his samples, and I have
15been also in that place and, in fact, the formwork is a
16complete mess. It is a very irregular formwork. You
17cannot draw any conclusion from that formwork one way or
18the other of what kind of hole was located where.
19Q. [Mr Irving] Is it not so that when you have formwork made of wooden
20planks, the concrete retains the grain of the wood; you
21can see the grain of the wood and that too would show that
22you could not plaster over the holes in such a way that
23Holocaust deniers years later would not find them?
24A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes, but there is one problem, and that is the column
25which remains. There is one column remains and it is the
26second column. The second column of the crematorium
. P-190
1remains. So it is not a column to which one of these mesh
2columns was attached. The mesh columns were attached to
3the first, the third, the fifth and the seventh.
4Q. [Mr Irving] Fortuitously, the one that remains was the one that did
5not have the wire mesh?
6A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes, or sadly so for your case maybe. So, in any case, we
7cannot draw any conclusions from the nature of the
8formwork around that column because that is not a column
9where the wire-mesh column was. So, I mean ----
10Q. [Mr Irving] I am talking about the ceiling.
11A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] There is a one little bit of ceiling only visible. The
12amount of ceiling is only a few square metre there. You
13can crawl under the roof of Leichenkeller No. 1. I have
14done it and I have looked at that roof.
15Q. [Mr Irving] Professor van Pelt, would it surprise you to hear that the
16Poles have made 400 photographs of the underside of that
17roof in an attempt to map every square inch of it looking
18for those holes and they failed?
19A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] But the problem is that holes are not under that part.
20Q. [Mr Irving] The holes are not under that part?
21A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I mean, the roof falls back into the ground.
22Q. [Mr Irving] Here is a map of the roof as it now is. This is the large
23yellow page that I gave his Lordship, right? There are no
24holes in that. It has been mapped from top and bottom.
25The only holes that exist are where it has been punched
26through in recent years by people curious about what is
. P-191
1going on underneath, and you can see that is the case
2because the steel reinforcing bars have been bent back,
3and the one place where the pillar has also broken
4through. The holes that your eyewitnesses refer to, as
5you correctly say, cannot be found for the simple reason
6they were never there and there is not the slightest trace
7of them being there, and I also draw your attention, my
8Lord, if you go back to page 184 ----
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
10MR IRVING: --- about 10 lines down: "The showers were fitted
11to small blocks of wood sealed into the concrete roof of
12the gas chamber". We have probably all seen these little
13blocks of wood that get embedded in the concrete when it
14is poured, so that things can be screwed to those little
15blocks of wood. Those little blocks of wood also are not
16in the ceiling, as you can see, my Lord, as I gave you two
17photographs in a heap this morning. I gave your Lordship
18two photographs, colour photographs, in a heap this
19morning.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am just underlining that.
21MR IRVING: I cannot find mine.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have got ----
23MR IRVING: Yes.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- the ones you gave me.
25MR IRVING: One is of the underside of the concrete roof and
26you can see -- exactly, my Lord -- you can see the
. P-192
1condition of the concrete roof underneath this messy slab
2is in. You can see the wooden markings on the concrete
3where formwork was all these years ago when they built
4crematorium No. 2 in Auschwitz. You can appreciate that
5if there had been those holes in the roof, which are the
6cardinal linchpin of the Defence in this action, they
7would have been found by now. They have not found them,
8and so their eyewitness evidence collapses because these
9people are exposed for the liars they were.
10 My Lord, it is four minutes to 4. Unless
11Mr Rampton wishes to say something to repair the damage at
12this point ----
13A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] My Lord, may I respond to this?
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but not until 10 be 30 tomorrow
15morning. What I would be like to know from you then is
16what evidence there is from the likes of Taiber about the
17way in which the pellets were inserted into the gas
18chamber. In other words, are there other witnesses who
19describe that?
20A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] There are other witnesses.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: We will have to deal with Kuhler as well,
22will we not, Mr Irving?
23MR IRVING: I think so, my Lord, to have a look at the
24wire-mesh columns.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I hope you will have enough time. If you get
26into difficulties I will be sympathetic. 10.30 tomorrow.
. P-193
1< (The witness stood down)
2(The Court adjourned until the following day)
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