Irving v. Lipstadt

    Yes, my Lord, and I have a question, because we have been
 1were actually crematoria (iv) and (v) which were designed
 2in immediate response to what I see as the change of
 3purpose of Auschwitz.
 4    Now, if you think that this is irrelevant
 5because we have only been talking really about the design
 6of the adaptation of morgue No. 1, I will not talk about
 7it, but in case you think it is useful, I do have prepared
 8also walk through of crematorium (i) and a discussion on
 9the blue prints of crematorium (iv) and (v).
10MR JUSTICE GRAY:    My reaction to that, and it is subject to
11anything Mr Irving may want to say or Mr Rampton, is that
12you can take whichever crematorium you wish or, I suppose,
13really Leichenkeller you wish, because if you are able to
14establish -- I do not know whether you will or you will
15not -- that they were designed to be gas chambers or that
16there was a duct through which the pellets could be
17poured, it seems to me it is likely to be the right
18inference that a similar plan was contemplated in relation
19to the other morgues.
20    So Mr Irving, unless you wish to dissuade the
21witness, I think he is entitled to look at any of the
22so-called gas chambers.
23MR IRVING:    In theory, yes, my Lord, but does it not rather fly
24in the face of your response to my remarks about proof,
25that I am not required to establish everything about the
26Holocaust.

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 1MR JUSTICE GRAY:    We are not dealing with proof at all at the
 2moment. We are dealing with how this witness chooses to
 3the question that I re formulated for him.
 4MR IRVING:    But if by a shifting of his ground now from the one
 5where he originally said 500,000 people died in this gas
 6chamber, and this was the centre of the universe of
 7atrocities, and he now wishes for whatever reason to
 8shift his ground away from there to 4 and 5, this, I would
 9submit, cannot really go to the issue of my negligence or
10deceit.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I think it can, it is relevant.
12MR RAMPTON:    My Lord ----
13MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Can I just answer that and then, of course,
14Mr Rampton? Supposing he answers the question by
15reference to 4 and 5, you can then pick up your
16cross-examination and say, "Well, come on, that is 4 and
175. I thought we were talking about 2".
18MR IRVING:    My Lord, I certainly shall do when the time comes.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Do.
20MR IRVING:    But I just wish to wave a little red flag and say
21that they are now changing the rules. They are changing
22not only the rules, but they are changing the football
23ground halfway through the game.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY:    That is a point you are entitled to make.
25MR IRVING:    This certainly lowers the standards of evidence,
26but let us take that when we come to it.

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 1MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Mr Rampton, I am sorry?
 2MR RAMPTON:    No, my Lord, I was interrupting and I should not
 3have done. I do believe again that Mr Irving has
 4completely misunderstood the nature of the case.
 5Mr Irving chose to focus on Leichenkeller 1 in crematorium
 6(ii). That is fine. Professor van Pelt's
 7evidence-in-chief, which is in his report and which, if he
 8disputes it, Mr Irving will have to challenge, is that
 9there were, in fact, at least seven homicidal gas chambers
10in use at Auschwitz and Birkenhau at various times up to
11the autumn of 1944.
12    Two of the most important of those buildings are
13crematoria (iv) and (v) which Professor van Pelt tells us
14in his report were purpose-built as gas chambers, and it
15is only for the case of coherence, if anything else, that
16he should, in my submission, explain what he says about
17those to your Lordship as relevant.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes. Having said what he wants to say about
19crematoria (iv) and (v), it is, of course, open to
20Mr Irving to say, "Well, that does not prove anything in
21relation to crematorium (ii)".
22MR RAMPTON:    It may not do.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I do not know whether it does or it does not,
24but he can cross-examine on that.
25MR RAMPTON:    It is a question of the cumulative effect of the
26evidence.

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 1MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Quite.
 2MR IRVING:    My Lord, the allegation really is the factories of
 3death allegation. If I have denied the factories of
 4death, which is the nub of the allegation against me, and
 5if I have successfully established to the court's
 6satisfaction that this building was not what has been
 7claimed over the last 55 years, and there is not the
 8slightest shred of reliable and plausible evidence for
 9that, then I would submit that I have discharged my
10obligations to the court in a satisfactory manner as far
11as my own reputation is concerned ----
12MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes.
13MR IRVING:    --- regarding the factories of death. If they come
14along with subsidiary allegations and say, "Yes, but a lot
15of Jews of gypsies were killed in this building too", I
16would say I have never denied that there were killings in
17Auschwitz. What I have denied is this mass production of
18factories of death allegation, this churning out 2,500
19bodies per day kind of allegation.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY:    You are beginning to give me a foretaste of
21what we call your final speech.
22MR IRVING:    My Lord, like any good advocate, I have been
23preparing my final speech from the moment this case began.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I am sure you have, but what I am really
25saying is that we are on the evidence at the moment and
26not on speeches. So let us get on with the evidence,

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 1shall we?
 2MR IRVING:    You allowed learned counsel some leeway on this
 3matter, my Lord, and I was only claiming the same amount
 4of leeway.
 5MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Mr Rampton probably has not started his final
 6speech yet.
 7MR RAMPTON:    Absolutely right.
 8MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Now, Professor?
 9A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     There are two issues. First of all, if we can have the
10override ----
11Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I know the problem. I think we have solved it, I hope.
12A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     And I would like, my Lord, there is going to be one
13particular detail which I do not have a sight of, but
14I refer to it when I come to it which is actually in
15Auschwitz 2, core file Auschwitz 2, the picture file,
16trial bundle, and it is actually in tab 1, No. 3B. It is
17actually to be seen in two pictures; detail B and the
18little colour version of detail B which is right below
19there.
20    Now, I will point out, since I do not want to
21come over to you and point on your document and then on
22Mr Irving's document and Mr Rampton's document, exactly
23which detail, but certainly I will put my finger on
24the thing in the slide which is not visible in the slide,
25but it visible actually in your enlargement right here.
26I want you to be prepared for that. Is it OK that I move

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