Irving v. Lipstadt

 1MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Tab 4.
 2MR RAMPTON:    Tab 4, Professor.
 3A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I am here.
 4Q. [Mr Rampton]     On 31st March 1943, Bischoff writes to the manufacturer
 5and he says in the second paragraph that he wants a gas
 6door 100 by 192 centimetres for Leichenkeller 1 at
 7crematorium (iii) BW30A, the same design, and what is
 8"mass", size ----
 9A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     "Size", yes.
10Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- as the keller door of the opposite crematorium (ii)
11with a spy hole from double 8 millimetre glass with a
12sealing, a gasket -- "gummidichtunng" be rubber sealing?
13A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
14Q. [Mr Rampton]     A rubber sealing. What is a beschlag?
15A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     That would be some kind of metal edge or ring. It is
16mostly metal work which you apply to something else. In
17this case to wood.
18Q. [Mr Rampton]     So it follows, does it not, as night follows from day,
19that both Leichenkellers in crematoria (ii) and (iii) had
20a gas type door of this description?
21A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
22Q. [Mr Rampton]     The description in the letter?
23A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
24Q. [Mr Rampton]     We know also, do we not, that Tauber described just such a
25door in his testimony?
26A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.

.   P-194

---

 1Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does this picture correspond with the description in this
 2letter and the description given by Tauber?
 3A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It does correspond with it. I would like to make one
 4caveat.
 5Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 6A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It is of course always possible that these were doors for
 7crematoria 4 and 5, because we do not have the final
 8measurements, but I presume that they would have been
 9designed in the same way.
10Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you look at the picture on the left, document 11, yes,
11that is necessarily -- sorry, I will not say. That has
12not got the metal grill on the spy hole, has it?
13A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It does not because we are looking at the outside.
14Q. [Mr Rampton]     Please let me take it in stages.
15A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
16Q. [Mr Rampton]     It does not have the metal grill?
17A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It does not have the metal grill.
18Q. [Mr Rampton]     It does have, I do not know what you call the thing, it is
19a sort of a bolt?
20A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
21Q. [Mr Rampton]     And probably the bolt, although it is impossible to tell
22from the picture precisely, goes in that direction, so
23that one can imagine that it is going to do that?
24A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
25Q. [Mr Rampton]     Fit into a slot or arm?
26A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.

.   P-195

---

 1Q. [Mr Rampton]     Look at the hinges.
 2A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     I see the hinges.
 3Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see the hinges. Does the shape of the hinges tell you
 4anything about the direction in which the door will open?
 5A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The door opens outwards.
 6MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Why do you say that from the hinges?
 7A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Because the hinges seem to come forward, the hinges on the
 8right side seem to come forward which means that ----
 9Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I must say I cannot really see that.
10A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Can I draw it?
11Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I know what you are saying, but I just do not see it on
12the photograph.
13MR IRVING:    It depends which side the hinges are, surely..
14A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It is very clearly on the top, on the top hinge. There
15are two hinges, and the top hinge.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I cannot see the top hinge.
17A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     It is right where the roof line is. The roof line. We
18are looking at document 11? You can see it. It is
19confirmed, it is confirmed by the next photo.
20MR RAMPTON:    I think, my Lord, your problem is you have not got
21a good photograph.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Have I not the same as everybody else?
23MR RAMPTON:    No, I have a much better one and so has the
24witness. Let the Judge see the original.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Can I borrow?
26MR IRVING:    My Lord, that door could be mounted either way. It

.   P-196

---

 1entirely depends whether it is mounted inside or outside.
 2MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Thank you very much.
 3MR RAMPTON:    Professor, taking that, if you like, with
 4Mr Tauber's description, but, if you like, leave Mr Tauber
 5out, to what side of the door does it seem to you that we
 6are looking in this photograph on the left-hand side of
 7the page?
 8A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The photograph on the left hand is the outside of the
 9door.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY:    So if one were looking through the peephole,
11as it were from where the photographer is, you would see
12inside the gas chamber?
13A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     That is the -- the peephole is there where people on the
14outside of the door would have stood.
15MR RAMPTON:    And your view would be somewhat, but not much, of
16that focal length obstructed by this grille?
17A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Which is shown in the next picture, where the grille is.
18Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. It is in the next picture, not very clear, but it
19is. That is quite right. If Leichenkeller 1 in
20crematoria (ii) and (iii) had been intended for use as
21disinfestation rooms, do you see any reason why Dejaco
22should have changed the way in which the doors opened from
23inwards to outwards?
24A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     No.
25Q. [Mr Rampton]     You spoke of the gas type shutters at bunkers 1 and 2, and
26this is in connection with what you were saying about K4

.   P-197

---

 1and K5, and you mentioned Dragon's testimony. If you have
 2that little bigger file, not very big file, K2, could you
 3turn to tab 3 and look at one of David Olaire's drawings?
 4A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     From No. 3?
 5Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, probably. You know them better than I.
 6A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
 7Q. [Mr Rampton]     Drawing No. 3, which is said to be a drawing from memory
 8done in 1945 of bunker 2 which has the macabre sign over
 9the door "Disinfektion", and do you see a window he has
10drawn?
11A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
12Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you take that block on the window to be?
13A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     This is one of these gas type shutters.
14Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does it correspond in size and appearance to what we can
15see if we go to Auschwitz now, those wooden gas type
16shutters?
17A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     The wooden gas type shutters which are in the ----
18Q. [Mr Rampton]     There are photographs in Pressac we need not look at?
19A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     --- in crematorium (i).
20MR IRVING:    My Lord, once again we are now introducing fresh
21pictures, fresh evidence. Had this been introduced
22originally, I would have brought photographs showing
23exactly the same gas type shutters with an entirely
24harmless use.
25MR RAMPTON:    This drawing has been in Professor van Pelt's
26report since the very beginning of this case, ever since

.   P-198

---

 1he did it.
 2MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes, but not perhaps specifically pointing
 3out that window as being ----
 4MR RAMPTON:    Oh, yes.
 5MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Oh, it is, is it? Good.
 6MR RAMPTON:    There is a whole section on Olaire's drawings and
 7this window, this particular drawing of this window. In
 8fact, there is another one on the next page, outside K5,
 9right at the end of the building behind the shoulder of
10the SS person in the end of the building. (To the
11witness): Is that right, Professor?
12A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes. That one -- that is the reason I included that
13drawing inside the expert report.
14Q. [Mr Rampton]     I understand that. You remember I asked you to look, this
15morning, at the document which spoke of keeping a plan
16secret?
17A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes.
18Q. [Mr Rampton]     There should have been attached to that another three
19pages.
20A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]     Yes, I have this.
21Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, dated 16th December 1942; it is a report from
22somebody called Heinrich Kinner who is an SS
23Untersturmfuhrer. My Lord, before I turn to this
24document, I will explain the reason I introduce you to the
25re-examination. The whole of Mr Irving's thesis may or
26may not be a relevant thesis, but the whole thesis is that

.   P-199

---