Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 11: Electronic Edition
Pages 200 - 205 of 205
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Yes, dated 16th December 1942; it is a report from
1there were no systematic homicidal gassings or killings,
2for that matter, at Auschwitz. If this be a genuine
3document, it is of direct relevance to everything he has
4put to the Professor in cross-examination.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
6MR RAMPTON: You will see a translation.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have not read it, Mr Rampton, so I cannot
8tell you about that, but that is the way it is put.
9MR RAMPTON: You will see a translation on the next two pages,
10Professor. Can we use the translation?
11MR IRVING: Before using translations, can I just once again
12object to the introduction of material like this which was
13supplied to me at 1 p.m. yesterday afternoon? It is now
14used in re-examination. This is not the way to deduce
15documents like this.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where did it come from?
17MR RAMPTON: I cannot tell, your Lordship, the source; the
18source wishes to remain anonymous for personal reasons.
19However, it is not a document that I have ever seen
20before nor anyone on my side. It even surprised my
21scholars. I do not know whether Professor van Pelt
22has seen it, because I have not been talking to him.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think you will have to lay the
24foundation, given that you tell me the provenance of it.
25MR RAMPTON: Well, as an anonymous provenance.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: It may be that he has seen it before, in
1which case, no problem, but otherwise, I think there has
2to be a limit on what one can introduce. I have not
3actually got the German, so maybe I am doing it less than
4justice.
5MR RAMPTON: I think we have the original German.
6MR IRVING: If the court is to establish a direct between
7Himmler and the killings of Jews somewhere.
8MR RAMPTON: No, that is not why I want to use the document at
9all. I want to use the document because it demonstrates
10what was happening to Jews at Auschwitz. That is of
11direct relevance to the cross-examination.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Given what you tell me about where it comes
13from, I think one needs to establish that it is on the
14face of it to be taken to be an authentic document.
15MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving has had it since yesterday. If he tells
16me he disputes its authenticity, then I ----
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you saying that, Mr Irving?
18MR IRVING: My Lord, I do not know how long it takes the
19Defence experts to look at a document and establish its
20context and find out where it came from, and its pedigree
21and hybrid. In this particular case, given the importance
22of the document, I would have no objection at all to it
23being introduced in three or four weeks time after I have
24had time to chew it over. To have it sprung on me and to
25be sand bagged like this with a document of this
26importance -- unless they are going to rest their entire
1case on this kind of tactic, I think it is very dubious
2and I think this is a very proper case for your Lordship
3to say, well, disregarding merits or otherwise of this
4document, this is not the way to do this; Mr Irving is
5appearing here in person. He does not have the
6resources. He does not have anonymous people ----
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think it has anything to do with
8resources. I have some sympathy with the fact you really
9have not had very much time to consider this.
10MR IRVING: That is the main point.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I am wondering, Mr Rampton, because
12obviously we are near the end of Professor van Pelt, do
13you actually have to put this document in through him?
14MR RAMPTON: No, I do not. I will use it cross-examination
15when I get back to Mr Irving. I have already told him
16that.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then I think I would prefer you did that.
18I think there is some force in what Mr Irving says.
19MR RAMPTON: Our side takes absolutely no blame for this. We
20have been, as your Lordship may imagine with a case of
21this high profile, showered with material from all
22quarters of the world. This came yesterday, no, I am
23wrong, Wednesday evening out of the blue.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. In a case of this kind, as you say,
25that is bound to happen, but I do not think it means that
26anything can come in, you know, without any real
1examination or opportunity for Mr Irving to examine.
2MR RAMPTON: No. If Mr Irving wants more time to think about
3it, that is fine. Meanwhile I am not going to say
4anything about the person we got this from, but what its
5original source is, which archive it was in.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: It has obviously comes from something, as you
7can see from document 6.
8MR RAMPTON: Yes, I am told that is a collection of documents
9I think in Walsall.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: There we are, Mr Irving. So far, as it were,
11I am with you. I am certainly going to give you time to
12think about it.
13MR IRVING: Thank you, my Lord.
14MR RAMPTON: I have finished my re-examination, my Lord. It is
1525 to 4.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have no questions myself, Professor van
17Pelt. You thank you very much indeed.
18MR RAMPTON: If it is necessary to release him, my Lord, could
19he be released?
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Are you released. I am sure it will
21not happen, but if it were to happen we will let you know
22if we would like you to come back. I have no reason to
23suppose that is going to happen.
24 I was going to possible ask Professor van Pelt
25about this, but I think it may be better done another
26way. Would it be possible for either of you, but I think
1the Defendants really are in a better position to, to just
2give me on perhaps a single piece of paper a description
3of how Auschwitz divides up between Auschwitz 1 and
4Auschwitz 2, Birkenhau? I do not really have the basic
5geography in my mind. I have looked at Professor van
6Pelt's helpful report. It does not really tackle that,
7because perhaps because it is so elementary. So would you
8mind producing a document?
9MR RAMPTON: He is the expert. I could do a diagram now but it
10would be wrong. Before he goes, I do not know if he is
11going until the weekend or beyond.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is why I think it is better not to do it
13in evidence.
14MR RAMPTON: No. Let him produce a plan and we can agree it
15and use it.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let Mr Irving see it obviously.
17MR RAMPTON: Of course. I will give him a copy.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is all basic stuff.
19MR IRVING: It should very much be an agreed plan.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, ideally.
21MR RAMPTON: There is one in Leuchter but it is so hopeless
22that I think we ought not to use it.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Well, I do not think there is any
24sense at all in recommencing your cross-examination. So
25we will adjourn now. Is there anything else that needs to
26be dealt with at this stage?
1MR RAMPTON: I do not think there is.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Monday we are having Professor McDonald.
3MR IRVING: Professor McDonald, my Lord.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Straight off at 10.30?
5MR IRVING: Straight off at 10.30.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is agreed between you both?
7MR RAMPTON: Yes, that fine.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: After that cross-examination resumes.
9MR RAMPTON: If cross-examination is to continue, I will say it
10now so that Mr Irving can think about, I am going to go to
11the meeting between Hitler and Admiral Hurty at Klessheim
12in April 1943. I am then probably going to go Dresden.
13Then I am going to go back to Reichskrissallnacht. That
14is as far as I have got in my planning at the moment.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. 10.30 on Monday then.
16< (The witness withdrew)
17(The Court adjourned until Monday, 31st January 2000).
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1there were no systematic homicidal gassings or killings,
2for that matter, at Auschwitz. If this be a genuine
3document, it is of direct relevance to everything he has
4put to the Professor in cross-examination.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
6MR RAMPTON: You will see a translation.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have not read it, Mr Rampton, so I cannot
8tell you about that, but that is the way it is put.
9MR RAMPTON: You will see a translation on the next two pages,
10Professor. Can we use the translation?
11MR IRVING: Before using translations, can I just once again
12object to the introduction of material like this which was
13supplied to me at 1 p.m. yesterday afternoon? It is now
14used in re-examination. This is not the way to deduce
15documents like this.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where did it come from?
17MR RAMPTON: I cannot tell, your Lordship, the source; the
18source wishes to remain anonymous for personal reasons.
19However, it is not a document that I have ever seen
20before nor anyone on my side. It even surprised my
21scholars. I do not know whether Professor van Pelt
22has seen it, because I have not been talking to him.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think you will have to lay the
24foundation, given that you tell me the provenance of it.
25MR RAMPTON: Well, as an anonymous provenance.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: It may be that he has seen it before, in
. P-200
1which case, no problem, but otherwise, I think there has
2to be a limit on what one can introduce. I have not
3actually got the German, so maybe I am doing it less than
4justice.
5MR RAMPTON: I think we have the original German.
6MR IRVING: If the court is to establish a direct between
7Himmler and the killings of Jews somewhere.
8MR RAMPTON: No, that is not why I want to use the document at
9all. I want to use the document because it demonstrates
10what was happening to Jews at Auschwitz. That is of
11direct relevance to the cross-examination.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Given what you tell me about where it comes
13from, I think one needs to establish that it is on the
14face of it to be taken to be an authentic document.
15MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving has had it since yesterday. If he tells
16me he disputes its authenticity, then I ----
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you saying that, Mr Irving?
18MR IRVING: My Lord, I do not know how long it takes the
19Defence experts to look at a document and establish its
20context and find out where it came from, and its pedigree
21and hybrid. In this particular case, given the importance
22of the document, I would have no objection at all to it
23being introduced in three or four weeks time after I have
24had time to chew it over. To have it sprung on me and to
25be sand bagged like this with a document of this
26importance -- unless they are going to rest their entire
. P-201
1case on this kind of tactic, I think it is very dubious
2and I think this is a very proper case for your Lordship
3to say, well, disregarding merits or otherwise of this
4document, this is not the way to do this; Mr Irving is
5appearing here in person. He does not have the
6resources. He does not have anonymous people ----
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think it has anything to do with
8resources. I have some sympathy with the fact you really
9have not had very much time to consider this.
10MR IRVING: That is the main point.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I am wondering, Mr Rampton, because
12obviously we are near the end of Professor van Pelt, do
13you actually have to put this document in through him?
14MR RAMPTON: No, I do not. I will use it cross-examination
15when I get back to Mr Irving. I have already told him
16that.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then I think I would prefer you did that.
18I think there is some force in what Mr Irving says.
19MR RAMPTON: Our side takes absolutely no blame for this. We
20have been, as your Lordship may imagine with a case of
21this high profile, showered with material from all
22quarters of the world. This came yesterday, no, I am
23wrong, Wednesday evening out of the blue.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. In a case of this kind, as you say,
25that is bound to happen, but I do not think it means that
26anything can come in, you know, without any real
. P-202
1examination or opportunity for Mr Irving to examine.
2MR RAMPTON: No. If Mr Irving wants more time to think about
3it, that is fine. Meanwhile I am not going to say
4anything about the person we got this from, but what its
5original source is, which archive it was in.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: It has obviously comes from something, as you
7can see from document 6.
8MR RAMPTON: Yes, I am told that is a collection of documents
9I think in Walsall.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: There we are, Mr Irving. So far, as it were,
11I am with you. I am certainly going to give you time to
12think about it.
13MR IRVING: Thank you, my Lord.
14MR RAMPTON: I have finished my re-examination, my Lord. It is
1525 to 4.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have no questions myself, Professor van
17Pelt. You thank you very much indeed.
18MR RAMPTON: If it is necessary to release him, my Lord, could
19he be released?
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Are you released. I am sure it will
21not happen, but if it were to happen we will let you know
22if we would like you to come back. I have no reason to
23suppose that is going to happen.
24 I was going to possible ask Professor van Pelt
25about this, but I think it may be better done another
26way. Would it be possible for either of you, but I think
. P-203
1the Defendants really are in a better position to, to just
2give me on perhaps a single piece of paper a description
3of how Auschwitz divides up between Auschwitz 1 and
4Auschwitz 2, Birkenhau? I do not really have the basic
5geography in my mind. I have looked at Professor van
6Pelt's helpful report. It does not really tackle that,
7because perhaps because it is so elementary. So would you
8mind producing a document?
9MR RAMPTON: He is the expert. I could do a diagram now but it
10would be wrong. Before he goes, I do not know if he is
11going until the weekend or beyond.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is why I think it is better not to do it
13in evidence.
14MR RAMPTON: No. Let him produce a plan and we can agree it
15and use it.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let Mr Irving see it obviously.
17MR RAMPTON: Of course. I will give him a copy.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is all basic stuff.
19MR IRVING: It should very much be an agreed plan.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, ideally.
21MR RAMPTON: There is one in Leuchter but it is so hopeless
22that I think we ought not to use it.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Well, I do not think there is any
24sense at all in recommencing your cross-examination. So
25we will adjourn now. Is there anything else that needs to
26be dealt with at this stage?
. P-204
1MR RAMPTON: I do not think there is.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Monday we are having Professor McDonald.
3MR IRVING: Professor McDonald, my Lord.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Straight off at 10.30?
5MR IRVING: Straight off at 10.30.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is agreed between you both?
7MR RAMPTON: Yes, that fine.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: After that cross-examination resumes.
9MR RAMPTON: If cross-examination is to continue, I will say it
10now so that Mr Irving can think about, I am going to go to
11the meeting between Hitler and Admiral Hurty at Klessheim
12in April 1943. I am then probably going to go Dresden.
13Then I am going to go back to Reichskrissallnacht. That
14is as far as I have got in my planning at the moment.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. 10.30 on Monday then.
16< (The witness withdrew)
17(The Court adjourned until Monday, 31st January 2000).
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