Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition
Pages 143 - 148 of 154
| << 1-6 | < 137-142 | 149-154 > | 148-154 >> |
Not at this time, my Lord. This was an ugly realisation.
1at everybody else and saying you are to blame for this.
2Herman Goring utters the famous phrase, it is about time
3that Dr Goebbels got a little bit of public enlightenment,
4which was the name of his ministry.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, Mr Rampton, for interrupting.
6MR RAMPTON: That is all right, my Lord. I am just wondering
7whether I would go back to something else but I think not?
8A. [Mr Irving] It gave me a chance to display what I know.
9Q. [Mr Rampton] In any event, Mr Irving, however you like to characterize
10that message, it is not, is it, a blanket prohibition
11against the destruction of, or damage to, Jewish property
12generally?
13A. [Mr Irving] No, it is not.
14Q. [Mr Rampton] No. My Lord, I am in this position now. We are all
15waiting for Dresden with bated breath, but the file will
16not be ready until tomorrow. We need help from Mr Irving
17with it anyway because the copies we have of his
18discovered documents are in many cases very difficult to
19read because they are photocopies of microfilm, a lot of
20them.
21 I have one more brief topic with which I can
22deal this afternoon, but I cannot sensibly make a start on
23Dresden unless everybody has the documents.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you cannot, you cannot.
25MR RAMPTON: We are running to catch up with each other. We
26could spend time reading Civil Evidence Act notices
1perhaps.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: On what topic?
3MR RAMPTON: On any old topic really just so that they are read
4into court. I do not want to waste the court's time.
5There is no point in my starting. Dresden will be the last
6of my Evans topics. I shall certainly comfortably
7complete that tomorrow and then I shall start on something
8else, as it were, more modern.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: More modern being what?
10MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving's recent utterances.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Denials?
12MR RAMPTON: Denials I think we have done, apart from Moscow,
13which I can also do tomorrow. The last topic, either
14Moscow or this, is where the speeches are made and who the
15people were.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
17MR RAMPTON: The political associations, which means that
18I think that my cross-examination of Mr Irving will finish
19comfortably this week.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
21MR RAMPTON: Probably Thursday morning, maybe Wednesday
22evening.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is a witness coming on Thursday.
24I cannot remember who it is.
25A. [Mr Irving] Peter Millar. I do not think he will be more than about
26an hour.
1MR RAMPTON: Which presents this difficulty, I am afraid, if
2that is right, because I do not think Dresden will take
3more than one day, perhaps less. We may have to find
4something to do for the rest of this week.
5A. [Mr Irving] I can bring another witness. I can have Dr John Fox in.
6MR RAMPTON: That would be very helpful because my Professor
7Browning is not arriving until Monday.
8A. [Mr Irving] I can bring in Dr Fox eye this week.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is Browning your next expert?
10MR RAMPTON: He is my next witness.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Rather than Evans?
12MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is a matter of academic convenience.
13That is the only reason. Browning has a full calendar
14after next week.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
16MR RAMPTON: I do not think he will be very long, so I will
17have to have somebody lined up for the later part of next
18week.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. You said you had something else that
20you want to deal with.
21MR RAMPTON: I do. I want to deal very briefly with
22Ribbentrop's testimony at Nuremberg. It starts at page
23478 of Evans.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you dealing, Mr Rampton -- I am sorry to
25keep asking. I just want to know where we are getting in
26terms of the summary of your case. Are you going to be
1dealing with the aftermath of Kristallnacht?
2MR RAMPTON: No. I made a judgment about that in the light of
3the cross-examination this morning.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does that mean that you are not relying on it
5or that it is something that you are relying on but do not
6think it is helpful cross-examine on?
7MR RAMPTON: It is difficult to rely on whatever Professor
8Evans may say about it. It is difficult to rely on it if
9it has not been put in cross-examination for Mr Irving to
10deal with, I would have said. I do not know what your
11Lordship thinks?
12A. [Mr Irving] Could your Lordship explain what that exchange is about?
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. You should understand. You remember in
14the summary of case which has superseded the defence,
15there has been set out in really a very helpful way the
16various bases of the criticism that you have manipulated
17data and skewed documents and all the rest of it. Oddly
18enough, Kristallnacht is divided into two, (1) the events
19of the 9th, I cannot remember what it was, December, and
20as a separate section, the events following Kristallnacht,
21later events. What Mr Rampton has just told me, in
22effect, is that he is not really pursuing that as ground
23of criticism.
24MR RAMPTON: Would your Lordship forgive me for one moment
25while I take my orders?
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not feel you have to decide this on the
1hoof.
2MR RAMPTON: I can always come back to it.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think one want to think about these things,
4and there are other categories.
5MR RAMPTON: I am not going to bother with the Roman Jews.
6That is just argy-bargy between me and Mr Irving and
7I think I have had enough of that. I got the one line
8answer that I expected I might get in relation to Hitler's
9anti-Semitism. I got that this morning. Prewar
10anti-Semitism.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: So we are now on Ribbentrop?
12MR RAMPTON: I have dealt with the 1924 trial and
13Reichskristallnacht itself. If I have your Lordship's
14permission, the last topic I want to deal with today is
15Ribbentrop's testimony at Nuremberg. Mr Irving, the first
16reference that Professor Evans makes to your writing is
17the footnote on page 851 of the 1977 edition of Hitler's
18War. I will need help with that because my Hitler's War
19footnotes do not have numbers on the pages.
20A. [Mr Irving] 877.
21Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, but I am afraid my edition has no pages beyond the
22end of the text. I do not know why that should be.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mine is the same but I think I have been
24updated.
25A. [Mr Irving] Would you like to borrow the book?
26MR RAMPTON: I would like to be sure that what Professor Evans
1says there is correct, that is all. If you tell me what
2page is to footnote 2, I can find it.
3A. [Mr Irving] 851.
4Q. [Mr Rampton] 851.
5A. [Mr Irving] Now I understand it.
6Q. [Mr Rampton] Well, I do not know. It is difficult for me to find it.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: That cannot be right?
8A. [Mr Irving] It is not on page 851, my Lord.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: The book does not go up to page 851.
10MR RAMPTON: I think it may be, Mr Irving, that Professor Evans
11was using a different edition than the one we have in
12court.
13A. [Mr Irving] Perhaps he translated the number wrongly.
14Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not want to spend a lot of time on this because all
15I am concerned about is that you should be sure that what
16Professor Evans has quoted in paragraph 1 on page 478 is
17what you wrote in the footnote. I am not able to check it
18myself because I cannot find it. It is a very short
19point, Mr Irving.
20A. [Mr Irving] Yes. I left something out, did I not, allegedly?
21Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, I think you did.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: So far you are pretty blameless, Mr Irving,
23because it appears that Professor Evans has the page
24number wrong.
25A. [Mr Irving] He may have translated it wrong.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY:
1at everybody else and saying you are to blame for this.
2Herman Goring utters the famous phrase, it is about time
3that Dr Goebbels got a little bit of public enlightenment,
4which was the name of his ministry.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, Mr Rampton, for interrupting.
6MR RAMPTON: That is all right, my Lord. I am just wondering
7whether I would go back to something else but I think not?
8A. [Mr Irving] It gave me a chance to display what I know.
9Q. [Mr Rampton] In any event, Mr Irving, however you like to characterize
10that message, it is not, is it, a blanket prohibition
11against the destruction of, or damage to, Jewish property
12generally?
13A. [Mr Irving] No, it is not.
14Q. [Mr Rampton] No. My Lord, I am in this position now. We are all
15waiting for Dresden with bated breath, but the file will
16not be ready until tomorrow. We need help from Mr Irving
17with it anyway because the copies we have of his
18discovered documents are in many cases very difficult to
19read because they are photocopies of microfilm, a lot of
20them.
21 I have one more brief topic with which I can
22deal this afternoon, but I cannot sensibly make a start on
23Dresden unless everybody has the documents.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you cannot, you cannot.
25MR RAMPTON: We are running to catch up with each other. We
26could spend time reading Civil Evidence Act notices
. P-143
1perhaps.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: On what topic?
3MR RAMPTON: On any old topic really just so that they are read
4into court. I do not want to waste the court's time.
5There is no point in my starting. Dresden will be the last
6of my Evans topics. I shall certainly comfortably
7complete that tomorrow and then I shall start on something
8else, as it were, more modern.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: More modern being what?
10MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving's recent utterances.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Denials?
12MR RAMPTON: Denials I think we have done, apart from Moscow,
13which I can also do tomorrow. The last topic, either
14Moscow or this, is where the speeches are made and who the
15people were.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
17MR RAMPTON: The political associations, which means that
18I think that my cross-examination of Mr Irving will finish
19comfortably this week.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
21MR RAMPTON: Probably Thursday morning, maybe Wednesday
22evening.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is a witness coming on Thursday.
24I cannot remember who it is.
25A. [Mr Irving] Peter Millar. I do not think he will be more than about
26an hour.
. P-144
1MR RAMPTON: Which presents this difficulty, I am afraid, if
2that is right, because I do not think Dresden will take
3more than one day, perhaps less. We may have to find
4something to do for the rest of this week.
5A. [Mr Irving] I can bring another witness. I can have Dr John Fox in.
6MR RAMPTON: That would be very helpful because my Professor
7Browning is not arriving until Monday.
8A. [Mr Irving] I can bring in Dr Fox eye this week.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is Browning your next expert?
10MR RAMPTON: He is my next witness.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Rather than Evans?
12MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is a matter of academic convenience.
13That is the only reason. Browning has a full calendar
14after next week.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
16MR RAMPTON: I do not think he will be very long, so I will
17have to have somebody lined up for the later part of next
18week.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. You said you had something else that
20you want to deal with.
21MR RAMPTON: I do. I want to deal very briefly with
22Ribbentrop's testimony at Nuremberg. It starts at page
23478 of Evans.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you dealing, Mr Rampton -- I am sorry to
25keep asking. I just want to know where we are getting in
26terms of the summary of your case. Are you going to be
. P-145
1dealing with the aftermath of Kristallnacht?
2MR RAMPTON: No. I made a judgment about that in the light of
3the cross-examination this morning.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does that mean that you are not relying on it
5or that it is something that you are relying on but do not
6think it is helpful cross-examine on?
7MR RAMPTON: It is difficult to rely on whatever Professor
8Evans may say about it. It is difficult to rely on it if
9it has not been put in cross-examination for Mr Irving to
10deal with, I would have said. I do not know what your
11Lordship thinks?
12A. [Mr Irving] Could your Lordship explain what that exchange is about?
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. You should understand. You remember in
14the summary of case which has superseded the defence,
15there has been set out in really a very helpful way the
16various bases of the criticism that you have manipulated
17data and skewed documents and all the rest of it. Oddly
18enough, Kristallnacht is divided into two, (1) the events
19of the 9th, I cannot remember what it was, December, and
20as a separate section, the events following Kristallnacht,
21later events. What Mr Rampton has just told me, in
22effect, is that he is not really pursuing that as ground
23of criticism.
24MR RAMPTON: Would your Lordship forgive me for one moment
25while I take my orders?
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not feel you have to decide this on the
. P-146
1hoof.
2MR RAMPTON: I can always come back to it.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think one want to think about these things,
4and there are other categories.
5MR RAMPTON: I am not going to bother with the Roman Jews.
6That is just argy-bargy between me and Mr Irving and
7I think I have had enough of that. I got the one line
8answer that I expected I might get in relation to Hitler's
9anti-Semitism. I got that this morning. Prewar
10anti-Semitism.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: So we are now on Ribbentrop?
12MR RAMPTON: I have dealt with the 1924 trial and
13Reichskristallnacht itself. If I have your Lordship's
14permission, the last topic I want to deal with today is
15Ribbentrop's testimony at Nuremberg. Mr Irving, the first
16reference that Professor Evans makes to your writing is
17the footnote on page 851 of the 1977 edition of Hitler's
18War. I will need help with that because my Hitler's War
19footnotes do not have numbers on the pages.
20A. [Mr Irving] 877.
21Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, but I am afraid my edition has no pages beyond the
22end of the text. I do not know why that should be.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mine is the same but I think I have been
24updated.
25A. [Mr Irving] Would you like to borrow the book?
26MR RAMPTON: I would like to be sure that what Professor Evans
. P-147
1says there is correct, that is all. If you tell me what
2page is to footnote 2, I can find it.
3A. [Mr Irving] 851.
4Q. [Mr Rampton] 851.
5A. [Mr Irving] Now I understand it.
6Q. [Mr Rampton] Well, I do not know. It is difficult for me to find it.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: That cannot be right?
8A. [Mr Irving] It is not on page 851, my Lord.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: The book does not go up to page 851.
10MR RAMPTON: I think it may be, Mr Irving, that Professor Evans
11was using a different edition than the one we have in
12court.
13A. [Mr Irving] Perhaps he translated the number wrongly.
14Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not want to spend a lot of time on this because all
15I am concerned about is that you should be sure that what
16Professor Evans has quoted in paragraph 1 on page 478 is
17what you wrote in the footnote. I am not able to check it
18myself because I cannot find it. It is a very short
19point, Mr Irving.
20A. [Mr Irving] Yes. I left something out, did I not, allegedly?
21Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, I think you did.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: So far you are pretty blameless, Mr Irving,
23because it appears that Professor Evans has the page
24number wrong.
25A. [Mr Irving] He may have translated it wrong.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY:
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| << 1-6 | < 137-142 | 149-154 > | 148-154 >> |