Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition
Pages 149 - 154 of 154
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There is not much translation in the figures,
1is there?
2A. [Mr Irving] I would not put anything past him when it comes to
3translation.
4MR RAMPTON: All right. Let us turn to page 479 of Evans where
5the German is printed in at the top of the page and the
6full text in English in paragraph 2.
7A. [Mr Irving] Yes. I left out the last sentence, did I not?
8Q. [Mr Rampton] You did leave out the last sentence, Mr Irving. Why did
9you leave out the last sentence?
10A. [Mr Irving] Well, that comes with the patch of being a writer. You
11are always leaving bits out of documents because otherwise
12you will end up writing eight pages of sludge every time.
13Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not know that I could accept that to include the last
14sentence has this effect on what Ribbentrop is reported
15as, or actually wrote? He wrote it himself I think, did
16he not?
17A. [Mr Irving] He wrote it in his death cell, yes, when he was about to
18be hanged.
19Q. [Mr Rampton] If you include the last sentence. So it is not a question
20of his being bullied or interrogated or tortured by the
21Allies, is it?
22A. [Mr Irving] I have never had the misfortune to sit in a death cell so
23I cannot imagine what psychological condition one is in.
24Q. [Mr Rampton] No, but you have relied on it yourself, have you not,
25minus this last sentence?
26A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
1Q. [Mr Rampton] If you include the last sentence, what you are trying to
2do is to see Hitler through the eyes of people that knew
3him well, as indeed Ribbentrop must have done.
4A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] However unpopular he might have been with others. The
6impression you leave is that in Ribbentrop's mind there
7was no doubt at all that Hitler could not have ordered the
8extermination of Jews because it was not in his
9character.
10A. [Mr Irving] That is not what he says. He says how things came to the
11destruction of the Jews, i just do not know as to whether
12Himmler began it or Hitler put up with it. I do not know.
13Q. [Mr Rampton] But that he ordered it -- and the italics are yours, not
14Ribbentrop's.
15A. [Mr Irving] That he ordered I refuse to believe.
16Q. [Mr Rampton] "Because such an act would be wholly incompatible with the
17picture I always had of him".
18A. [Mr Irving] That is the part that I considered to be significant.
19Q. [Mr Rampton] I can see that at once, Mr Irving. We are not going to
20argue about that. But do you not agree that, if you add
21the last sentence, then the picture of Hitler's
22personality which one derives from Ribbentrop's written
23words is a very great deal more equivocal, is it not?
24A. [Mr Irving] I agree. It is a defeated man about to be hanged, who
25then writes, on the other hand judging from his testament,
26one would suppose that he at least knew about it, if not
1even ordered it, in his fanaticism against the Jews. What
2kind of evidence is that? Supposition.
3Q. [Mr Rampton] It is just as good evidence as the bit that you did
4quote.
5A. [Mr Irving] Yes. They are both equally bad.
6Q. [Mr Rampton] So why quote one bad bit and leave off the other bad bit
7which supplies the balance?
8A. [Mr Irving] Well, it does not just supply the balance. It also makes
9the passage twice as long and it is bad enough quoting one
10supposition without putting in two suppositions, the
11second of which is really a piece of resigned wish-wash by
12the man who says, well, anyway, who knows? Who knows?
13I suppose, if you read his testament, he does look like a
14different man.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] You quoted it as ever, all these little or big, all these
16alterations, suppressions, transfers, and so on that over
17the weeks we hope we have demonstrated, all these
18adjustments which you make to the evidence, all tend in
19one direction, Mr Irving. That is to say, the exoneration
20of Adolf Hitler.
21A. [Mr Irving] I totally disagree. You have no idea what other passages
22I cut out of documents because they were too long. If a
23document is too long, I will cut it, regardless of what
24the content is, and sometimes I cut matters which lean one
25way, sometimes I cut matters which lean the other way, and
26this was a typical piece which cries out to be cut and it
1got cut. It was chopped. I know that my opponents clutch
2at these sentences like drowning men in the hope that this
3may save them. I think, if this is the best they can do,
4then it is pathetic.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] I told you a long time ago, Mr Irving, that I was not
6pinning my hopes on any one document, any one little error
7by you, because of course errors can go in any direction.
8I am pinning my case on some very big adjustments and some
9little ones, which converge to the same conclusion.
10Whenever there is something adverse to Hitler, it is
11jettisoned.
12A. [Mr Irving] Well, I look forward to hearing things you are pinning
13your hopes on.
14Q. [Mr Rampton] You have heard most of them already, I think.
15A. [Mr Irving] Oh, gosh!
16Q. [Mr Rampton] Then I will be about the same business, Mr Irving, when we
17get to Dresden tomorrow.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Would you, for my benefit, Mr Rampton, let me
19know if there are any of the points in your Defendants'
20summary of case which ----
21MR RAMPTON: Yes, I will.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- you are not pursuing and then I can ----
23MR RAMPTON: The Roman Jews your Lordship can ----
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
25MR RAMPTON: I think the only other thing at the moment that
26I have not finally -- because I need to take my orders --
1decided about is the aftermath of Reichskristallnacht.
2There may be some little pieces from the Adjutants that
3I will use, there may be not, but as soon as we have made
4a decision, we will let you know.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: And Madame Valliant-Couturier -- have we had
6her?
7MR RAMPTON: We have had her, yes.
8A. [Mr Irving] She was the one with the beating machine.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. So, I do not myself see any point in
10just reading Civil Evidence Act Notices just for the sake
11of it. If they arise in connection with the point we are
12happening to deal with, then, by all means, let us see
13them, but none, I think really arise on the topics we have
14been dealing with today, do they?
15A. [Mr Irving] Can I ask, will you be calling the Russians or?
16MR RAMPTON: I have not made a final decision about that yet,
17Mr Irving. I think the probability is not, no. I do not
18want to waste the court's time and my client's money.
19A. [Mr Irving] Well, what is decided? Because, obviously, I have to do a
20great deal of preparation for the cross-examination of
21these witness, and it would be nice to know sometime
22ahead.
23MR RAMPTON: Yes, no, I promise you, I have been quite good
24about that, I think, my Lord. As soon as I have made a
25final decision that I am not going to, I will let you
26know.
1A. [Mr Irving] Well, we are very well prepared for Professor Terassof.
2We were hoping he was going to bring the glass plates with
3him.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right, well, do not think I need listen to
5this debate. But, obviously, it is right that Mr Irving
6should have ample opportunity of anything that is not
7being pursued, that is not being called, because he has a
8lot on his plate anyway and ----
9MR RAMPTON: I know.
10A. [Mr Irving] Time is a very scarce commodity for me.
11MR RAMPTON: I am well conscious of that.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: So 10.30 tomorrow.
13< (The witness stood down)
14(Court adjourned until the following day)
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1is there?
2A. [Mr Irving] I would not put anything past him when it comes to
3translation.
4MR RAMPTON: All right. Let us turn to page 479 of Evans where
5the German is printed in at the top of the page and the
6full text in English in paragraph 2.
7A. [Mr Irving] Yes. I left out the last sentence, did I not?
8Q. [Mr Rampton] You did leave out the last sentence, Mr Irving. Why did
9you leave out the last sentence?
10A. [Mr Irving] Well, that comes with the patch of being a writer. You
11are always leaving bits out of documents because otherwise
12you will end up writing eight pages of sludge every time.
13Q. [Mr Rampton] I do not know that I could accept that to include the last
14sentence has this effect on what Ribbentrop is reported
15as, or actually wrote? He wrote it himself I think, did
16he not?
17A. [Mr Irving] He wrote it in his death cell, yes, when he was about to
18be hanged.
19Q. [Mr Rampton] If you include the last sentence. So it is not a question
20of his being bullied or interrogated or tortured by the
21Allies, is it?
22A. [Mr Irving] I have never had the misfortune to sit in a death cell so
23I cannot imagine what psychological condition one is in.
24Q. [Mr Rampton] No, but you have relied on it yourself, have you not,
25minus this last sentence?
26A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
. P-149
1Q. [Mr Rampton] If you include the last sentence, what you are trying to
2do is to see Hitler through the eyes of people that knew
3him well, as indeed Ribbentrop must have done.
4A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] However unpopular he might have been with others. The
6impression you leave is that in Ribbentrop's mind there
7was no doubt at all that Hitler could not have ordered the
8extermination of Jews because it was not in his
9character.
10A. [Mr Irving] That is not what he says. He says how things came to the
11destruction of the Jews, i just do not know as to whether
12Himmler began it or Hitler put up with it. I do not know.
13Q. [Mr Rampton] But that he ordered it -- and the italics are yours, not
14Ribbentrop's.
15A. [Mr Irving] That he ordered I refuse to believe.
16Q. [Mr Rampton] "Because such an act would be wholly incompatible with the
17picture I always had of him".
18A. [Mr Irving] That is the part that I considered to be significant.
19Q. [Mr Rampton] I can see that at once, Mr Irving. We are not going to
20argue about that. But do you not agree that, if you add
21the last sentence, then the picture of Hitler's
22personality which one derives from Ribbentrop's written
23words is a very great deal more equivocal, is it not?
24A. [Mr Irving] I agree. It is a defeated man about to be hanged, who
25then writes, on the other hand judging from his testament,
26one would suppose that he at least knew about it, if not
. P-150
1even ordered it, in his fanaticism against the Jews. What
2kind of evidence is that? Supposition.
3Q. [Mr Rampton] It is just as good evidence as the bit that you did
4quote.
5A. [Mr Irving] Yes. They are both equally bad.
6Q. [Mr Rampton] So why quote one bad bit and leave off the other bad bit
7which supplies the balance?
8A. [Mr Irving] Well, it does not just supply the balance. It also makes
9the passage twice as long and it is bad enough quoting one
10supposition without putting in two suppositions, the
11second of which is really a piece of resigned wish-wash by
12the man who says, well, anyway, who knows? Who knows?
13I suppose, if you read his testament, he does look like a
14different man.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] You quoted it as ever, all these little or big, all these
16alterations, suppressions, transfers, and so on that over
17the weeks we hope we have demonstrated, all these
18adjustments which you make to the evidence, all tend in
19one direction, Mr Irving. That is to say, the exoneration
20of Adolf Hitler.
21A. [Mr Irving] I totally disagree. You have no idea what other passages
22I cut out of documents because they were too long. If a
23document is too long, I will cut it, regardless of what
24the content is, and sometimes I cut matters which lean one
25way, sometimes I cut matters which lean the other way, and
26this was a typical piece which cries out to be cut and it
. P-151
1got cut. It was chopped. I know that my opponents clutch
2at these sentences like drowning men in the hope that this
3may save them. I think, if this is the best they can do,
4then it is pathetic.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] I told you a long time ago, Mr Irving, that I was not
6pinning my hopes on any one document, any one little error
7by you, because of course errors can go in any direction.
8I am pinning my case on some very big adjustments and some
9little ones, which converge to the same conclusion.
10Whenever there is something adverse to Hitler, it is
11jettisoned.
12A. [Mr Irving] Well, I look forward to hearing things you are pinning
13your hopes on.
14Q. [Mr Rampton] You have heard most of them already, I think.
15A. [Mr Irving] Oh, gosh!
16Q. [Mr Rampton] Then I will be about the same business, Mr Irving, when we
17get to Dresden tomorrow.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Would you, for my benefit, Mr Rampton, let me
19know if there are any of the points in your Defendants'
20summary of case which ----
21MR RAMPTON: Yes, I will.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- you are not pursuing and then I can ----
23MR RAMPTON: The Roman Jews your Lordship can ----
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
25MR RAMPTON: I think the only other thing at the moment that
26I have not finally -- because I need to take my orders --
. P-152
1decided about is the aftermath of Reichskristallnacht.
2There may be some little pieces from the Adjutants that
3I will use, there may be not, but as soon as we have made
4a decision, we will let you know.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: And Madame Valliant-Couturier -- have we had
6her?
7MR RAMPTON: We have had her, yes.
8A. [Mr Irving] She was the one with the beating machine.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. So, I do not myself see any point in
10just reading Civil Evidence Act Notices just for the sake
11of it. If they arise in connection with the point we are
12happening to deal with, then, by all means, let us see
13them, but none, I think really arise on the topics we have
14been dealing with today, do they?
15A. [Mr Irving] Can I ask, will you be calling the Russians or?
16MR RAMPTON: I have not made a final decision about that yet,
17Mr Irving. I think the probability is not, no. I do not
18want to waste the court's time and my client's money.
19A. [Mr Irving] Well, what is decided? Because, obviously, I have to do a
20great deal of preparation for the cross-examination of
21these witness, and it would be nice to know sometime
22ahead.
23MR RAMPTON: Yes, no, I promise you, I have been quite good
24about that, I think, my Lord. As soon as I have made a
25final decision that I am not going to, I will let you
26know.
. P-153
1A. [Mr Irving] Well, we are very well prepared for Professor Terassof.
2We were hoping he was going to bring the glass plates with
3him.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right, well, do not think I need listen to
5this debate. But, obviously, it is right that Mr Irving
6should have ample opportunity of anything that is not
7being pursued, that is not being called, because he has a
8lot on his plate anyway and ----
9MR RAMPTON: I know.
10A. [Mr Irving] Time is a very scarce commodity for me.
11MR RAMPTON: I am well conscious of that.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: So 10.30 tomorrow.
13< (The witness stood down)
14(Court adjourned until the following day)
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