Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition
Pages 181 - 186 of 186
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I had the impression you were not listen. I was able to
1Dresden because there were not enough bodies to find.
2MR RAMPTON: My Lord, that concludes my cross-examination on
3Dresden.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
5A. [Mr Irving] I have still repeated the figures of 60,000 to 100,000 in
6my latest edition of the Dresden book. On my web site
7edition I have drawn attention to the fact that the
8figures are probably controversial which I think is the
9correct way to go about it.
10MR RAMPTON: My Lord, that being so ----
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, do sit down.
12MR RAMPTON: I have no further questions to ask Mr Irving this
13afternoon. The remaining topics are, there is a gentleman
14called Almeyer who was for a short time an officer at
15Auschwitz. I am not interested in, shall I say, the
16substance of Herr Almeyer's evidence, but I shall want to
17ask Mr Irving some questions about that. It is only about
18two questions. Then there is Moscow.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then there is who?
20MR RAMPTON: Moscow. My proposal for that, actually it is not
21mine again, it is Miss Rogers' clever plan and it is not a
22trick, she has produced a sort of schedule of events which
23I can spend a day wading through in court by reference to
24documents, but which does seem to us to be really rather a
25waste of time, since, as I think your Lordship has already
26observed, much of this may turn out to be common ground.
1What we propose to do, particularly since it is only 20 to
24, is to give your Lordship and Mr Irving a copy of this,
3it is a similar sort of document to the one we have been
4using this afternoon in relation to Dresden, and ask
5Mr Irving to read it overnight and to mark on it those
6areas which are in dispute. Then I can ----
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Mr Irving, are you happy about that?
8MR IRVING: My Lord, I am not entirely happy about it. I was
9not happy about this tabulation that was put in because of
10its tendentious nature in parts. They put in quotations
11extracts from quotations.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: That the sort of thing that is slightly
13concerning me. That is not a criticism of Miss Rogers.
14MR IRVING: Some of them are deeply prejudicial they are before
15your Lordship. Your Lordship is a human being. If one
16reads the entire letter you can see what the entire letter
17was about in connection ----
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think what I will say, and I understand
19your concern, is read whatever it is that is being
20produced.
21MR RAMPTON: I will not give it your Lordship.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not suppose you mind me seeing it, do
23you?
24MR RAMPTON: He did say he was a bit worried it might colour
25your Lordship's mind or something to that effect.
26MR IRVING: It is already a selection of documents made from
1their own bundles which are not agreed bundles.
2MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, it will not do you any harm to read it,
3if I may suggest.
4MR IRVING: I am not easily harmed, Mr Rampton.
5MR RAMPTON: No, that is perfectly plain.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Read it and then we will see in the light of
7your reading of it what we are going to do with it, if
8anything.
9MR RAMPTON: I am quite happy for your Lordship to have one,
10but if Mr Irving is worried about it ----
11MR IRVING: I prefer if your Lordship waits until I have read
12the first ----
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: You say that and I think that is not
14unreasonable.
15MR RAMPTON: Then beyond that which I am going to do in the
16form of broad questions to which I expect to get negative
17answers, if necessary, I will put the questions, Mr
18Irving's political associations, and I will leave the
19detail to be dealt with by my experts so far as they are
20going to be witnesses.
21 Only perhaps at the end, or perhaps not, some of
22Mr Irving's utterances about, put bluntly, anti-Semitism
23and racism, for which there would be marked up files, by
24tomorrow morning, but I do not have them yet.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have not, sort of, gone through to think of
26any other topics that may need to be covered, but I am
1sure you have.
2MR RAMPTON: I am going to have a trawl through the undergrowth
3with Miss Rogers tonight to see if there is anything that
4we have missed, but we do not think there is. Else. We
5think that is all that is left.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Adjutants occurs to me.
7MR RAMPTON: I keep forgetting them because I do not like them,
8I find them muddly, but the fact is there may be something
9in them that I do need to do. I am hopeful that I will
10finish cross-examining Mr Irving by the end of tomorrow,
11if not sometime early on Thursday, but certainly this
12week.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very helpful.
14MR RAMPTON: Then, my Lord, I tell your Lordship this, next
15week on Monday, Professor Browning will be here, and this
16is always subject to evidence that Mr Irving wants to
17call, because we are, in effect, unless he has finished
18his case at the end of this week, interposing. Then
19sometime when Professor Browning is finished, Professor
20Evans and following him, Dr Longerich.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
22MR RAMPTON: So that should cover the next couple of weeks, the
23beginning of next week, which means we have done actually
24pretty well on the time schedule.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. I have said this before, Mr Irving,
26but if you want a pause between the experts, I would be
1more than happy to agree to that.
2MR IRVING: I may well ask for one day before we take on Evans.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is entirely reasonable.
4MR IRVING: Yes. Between the experts, I think we are ready for
5Browning.
6MR RAMPTON: I do not know, but my suspicion is that Professor
7Browning will not in the witness box very long.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: As we have a few minutes, I have a bit of a
9mound of documents.
10MR IRVING: My Lord, the cream sheet of paper just confirms
11what I said to you yesterday morning, just those points
12that I made, and I thought you might like to have that in
13writing.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
15MR IRVING: The other items belong in the Dresden clip of
16Dresden documents they gave you.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. I think what I will do with these is
18put them, whatever it was, L1.
19MR IRVING: Yes. I was going to give your Lordship a bundle of
20photographs, but I find these repulsive photographs
21probably sit better in the Dresden file where they belong.
22MR RAMPTON: Yes, I put that glossy brochure in the waste
23basket.
24MR IRVING: I will retrieve it, if I may. I know you do not
25think very much of what we did to Dresden, but I do.
26MR RAMPTON: What do you mean?
1MR IRVING: You said, "So what?"
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. We have disposed of "so what",
3Mr Irving, once and for all.
4MR RAMPTON: Enough "so whats", Mr Irving.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am putting it in tab 4 of L1 which I know
6is your bundle.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: 10.30 tomorrow.
8< (The witness stood down)
9(The court adjourned until the following day)
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1Dresden because there were not enough bodies to find.
2MR RAMPTON: My Lord, that concludes my cross-examination on
3Dresden.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
5A. [Mr Irving] I have still repeated the figures of 60,000 to 100,000 in
6my latest edition of the Dresden book. On my web site
7edition I have drawn attention to the fact that the
8figures are probably controversial which I think is the
9correct way to go about it.
10MR RAMPTON: My Lord, that being so ----
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, do sit down.
12MR RAMPTON: I have no further questions to ask Mr Irving this
13afternoon. The remaining topics are, there is a gentleman
14called Almeyer who was for a short time an officer at
15Auschwitz. I am not interested in, shall I say, the
16substance of Herr Almeyer's evidence, but I shall want to
17ask Mr Irving some questions about that. It is only about
18two questions. Then there is Moscow.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then there is who?
20MR RAMPTON: Moscow. My proposal for that, actually it is not
21mine again, it is Miss Rogers' clever plan and it is not a
22trick, she has produced a sort of schedule of events which
23I can spend a day wading through in court by reference to
24documents, but which does seem to us to be really rather a
25waste of time, since, as I think your Lordship has already
26observed, much of this may turn out to be common ground.
. P-181
1What we propose to do, particularly since it is only 20 to
24, is to give your Lordship and Mr Irving a copy of this,
3it is a similar sort of document to the one we have been
4using this afternoon in relation to Dresden, and ask
5Mr Irving to read it overnight and to mark on it those
6areas which are in dispute. Then I can ----
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Mr Irving, are you happy about that?
8MR IRVING: My Lord, I am not entirely happy about it. I was
9not happy about this tabulation that was put in because of
10its tendentious nature in parts. They put in quotations
11extracts from quotations.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: That the sort of thing that is slightly
13concerning me. That is not a criticism of Miss Rogers.
14MR IRVING: Some of them are deeply prejudicial they are before
15your Lordship. Your Lordship is a human being. If one
16reads the entire letter you can see what the entire letter
17was about in connection ----
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think what I will say, and I understand
19your concern, is read whatever it is that is being
20produced.
21MR RAMPTON: I will not give it your Lordship.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not suppose you mind me seeing it, do
23you?
24MR RAMPTON: He did say he was a bit worried it might colour
25your Lordship's mind or something to that effect.
26MR IRVING: It is already a selection of documents made from
. P-182
1their own bundles which are not agreed bundles.
2MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, it will not do you any harm to read it,
3if I may suggest.
4MR IRVING: I am not easily harmed, Mr Rampton.
5MR RAMPTON: No, that is perfectly plain.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Read it and then we will see in the light of
7your reading of it what we are going to do with it, if
8anything.
9MR RAMPTON: I am quite happy for your Lordship to have one,
10but if Mr Irving is worried about it ----
11MR IRVING: I prefer if your Lordship waits until I have read
12the first ----
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: You say that and I think that is not
14unreasonable.
15MR RAMPTON: Then beyond that which I am going to do in the
16form of broad questions to which I expect to get negative
17answers, if necessary, I will put the questions, Mr
18Irving's political associations, and I will leave the
19detail to be dealt with by my experts so far as they are
20going to be witnesses.
21 Only perhaps at the end, or perhaps not, some of
22Mr Irving's utterances about, put bluntly, anti-Semitism
23and racism, for which there would be marked up files, by
24tomorrow morning, but I do not have them yet.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have not, sort of, gone through to think of
26any other topics that may need to be covered, but I am
. P-183
1sure you have.
2MR RAMPTON: I am going to have a trawl through the undergrowth
3with Miss Rogers tonight to see if there is anything that
4we have missed, but we do not think there is. Else. We
5think that is all that is left.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Adjutants occurs to me.
7MR RAMPTON: I keep forgetting them because I do not like them,
8I find them muddly, but the fact is there may be something
9in them that I do need to do. I am hopeful that I will
10finish cross-examining Mr Irving by the end of tomorrow,
11if not sometime early on Thursday, but certainly this
12week.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very helpful.
14MR RAMPTON: Then, my Lord, I tell your Lordship this, next
15week on Monday, Professor Browning will be here, and this
16is always subject to evidence that Mr Irving wants to
17call, because we are, in effect, unless he has finished
18his case at the end of this week, interposing. Then
19sometime when Professor Browning is finished, Professor
20Evans and following him, Dr Longerich.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
22MR RAMPTON: So that should cover the next couple of weeks, the
23beginning of next week, which means we have done actually
24pretty well on the time schedule.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. I have said this before, Mr Irving,
26but if you want a pause between the experts, I would be
. P-184
1more than happy to agree to that.
2MR IRVING: I may well ask for one day before we take on Evans.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is entirely reasonable.
4MR IRVING: Yes. Between the experts, I think we are ready for
5Browning.
6MR RAMPTON: I do not know, but my suspicion is that Professor
7Browning will not in the witness box very long.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: As we have a few minutes, I have a bit of a
9mound of documents.
10MR IRVING: My Lord, the cream sheet of paper just confirms
11what I said to you yesterday morning, just those points
12that I made, and I thought you might like to have that in
13writing.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
15MR IRVING: The other items belong in the Dresden clip of
16Dresden documents they gave you.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. I think what I will do with these is
18put them, whatever it was, L1.
19MR IRVING: Yes. I was going to give your Lordship a bundle of
20photographs, but I find these repulsive photographs
21probably sit better in the Dresden file where they belong.
22MR RAMPTON: Yes, I put that glossy brochure in the waste
23basket.
24MR IRVING: I will retrieve it, if I may. I know you do not
25think very much of what we did to Dresden, but I do.
26MR RAMPTON: What do you mean?
. P-185
1MR IRVING: You said, "So what?"
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. We have disposed of "so what",
3Mr Irving, once and for all.
4MR RAMPTON: Enough "so whats", Mr Irving.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am putting it in tab 4 of L1 which I know
6is your bundle.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: 10.30 tomorrow.
8< (The witness stood down)
9(The court adjourned until the following day)
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