Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 14: Electronic Edition
Pages 164 - 169 of 175
| << 1-6 | < 158-163 | 170-175 > | 169-175 >> |
If I pick on any other name and put that name to this,
1any other race, but because Mr Wiesenthal is apparently
2Jewish, I do not know, but he presumably is Jewish,
3therefore, you say it is anti-Jewish. It is not. It is
4anti-ugly.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] Mr Irving, now we are going to end with a bang. Turn
6back, please, to the top of page 16, will you?
7A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
8Q. [Mr Rampton] "I have found governments being involved in trying to
9silence me in Canada and South Africa and Australia and
10I never used to believe in the existence of an
11international Jewish conspiracy". Pause there. Who is
12Simon or Simon Wiesenthal? Who is Simon Wiesenthal?
13A. [Mr Irving] He is an Austrian who has no connection at all with the
14Simon Wiesenthal Centre.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] Is he Jewish?
16A. [Mr Irving] I presume he is, yes.
17Q. [Mr Rampton] Right, and so now we are going to see the context in which
18you put his Halloween mask. "I never used to believe in
19the existence of an international Jewish conspiracy, and
20I am not even sure even now if there is an international
21Jewish conspiracy. All I know is that people are
22conspiring internationally against me and they do turn out
23mostly to be" -- in fact, the word must have been "Jews",
24must it not?
25A. [Mr Irving] I do not know. It does not say.
26Q. [Mr Rampton] Oh, come on. Look at the syntax of the sentence.
1A. [Mr Irving] OK, let us assume it was "Jews", yes.
2Q. [Mr Rampton] "Applause, applause"?
3A. [Mr Irving] But that is precisely what we are going to be
4demonstrating to the court in the next few days, how much
5this international endeavour has been, unfortunately,
6guided by the self-appointed leaders of that community.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] If you are going to attempt that, you will have to give me
8notice. It is no part of your pleading and I shall have
9something to say about it because it has nothing to do
10with Mrs Lipstadt.
11A. [Mr Irving] Well, you will see -- oh, and indeed it does and that is,
12undoubtedly, the reason why I have put in bundle E global.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that is a digression. We may have to
14come back to that.
15MR RAMPTON: A digression. But that inspiring observation,
16Mr Irving, was greeted with applause. Do you see that?
17A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
18Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you know why?
19A. [Mr Irving] Probably because they thought it was funny or that they
20were applauding the fact that I said there was no
21international Jewish conspiracy or because -- I do not
22know. What is your theory?
23Q. [Mr Rampton] They are very pleased that, in fact -- it is another of
24your clever, little sarcastic racist jokes about the Jews
25-- though you do not know there is an international
26Jewish conspiracy, it turns out most of the conspirators
1are Jews?
2A. [Mr Irving] So, in other words, I am not allowed to criticise the fact
3that this community's self-appointed leaders around the
4world have set about trying to suppress freedom of speech,
5to abrogate my right to travel freely around the world,
6I am not allowed to criticise that because they are
7Jewish, is that right? On the contrary, if I find any
8person or any body of people, whether they are black or
9yellow or Asian or French or Germans or leading counsel,
10indeed, who are trying to abrogate my rights to freedom of
11speech and free right to travel, then I will criticise
12them without fear or favour. And the fact that this
13comment happens to be Jewish is neither here nor there. It
14cannot be construed as anti-Semitic.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] Shall we read on and see whether we agree with that,
16Mr Irving? "We have one basic problem and this is, apart
17from the literature displayed on the table over there, we
18have no national" -- I do not know who "we" are -- "organ
19that we can read to find out what is going on. I am not
20ashamed to say that I read the Jewish Chronicle to find
21out what they are doing because they seem pretty well
22informed". This is the sort of Aryan Defence League
23against the Jews, the "we", is it?
24A. [Mr Irving] Where do you get "Aryan Defence League" from?
25Q. [Mr Rampton] Well, who is the "we"?
26A. [Mr Irving] Well, I frequently find out what the Jewish organizations
1are planning against me because it is announced in the
2Jewish Chronicle. They say, "Meet outside Mr Irving's
3flat, 81 Duke Street, 12.00 midday". That is how I know
4when these demonstrations are going to happen.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] It is not the Royal "we", Mr Irving. "I read the Jewish
6Chronicle to find out what we are doing". Who are the
7"we"?
8A. [Mr Irving] I have no idea.
9Q. [Mr Rampton] "There is an article here only a couple of weeks ago
10called 'Anti-Semites ask for cash in latest sophisticated
11forgery'" -- not, by any chance, the united anti-Semites
12then, the "we"?
13A. [Mr Irving] I have got no idea what the article is about.
14Q. [Mr Rampton] Well, you must have done because you mentioned it.
15A. [Mr Irving] Well, it certainly was not me so I cannot see what the
16reference is.
17Q. [Mr Rampton] "This is, of course, an unusual twist as it is not usually
18anti-Semites who are asking for cash in sophisticated
19forgeries. A man called Mr Mike Whine, the director of
20the board of deputies of British Jews", Mike W-H-I-N-E,
21you spell it ----
22A. [Mr Irving] You will appreciate the reason why I do not like Mike
23Whine because I discovered that he is the person who has
24dedicated much of his life to destroying my career and
25livelihood by now, and that those documents are also in
26the bundle.
1Q. [Mr Rampton] I might not like the black man who is my enemy, but I am
2not likely to use the fact that he is black in order to
3defend myself, am I, Mr Irving?
4A. [Mr Irving] I do not criticise anybody because of their colour,
5Mr Rampton.
6Q. [Mr Rampton] Then why do you make such again with Mr Whine's name?
7A. [Mr Irving] Because I am defensive about the man. The man has spent
8many years trying to destroy me. He has maintained a
9dossier full of the most evil and defamatory and lying
10facts about me which he puts to foreign governments with
11the intention of destroying my career, as we now know.
12Q. [Mr Rampton] You do not like Mr Whine. I understand that.
13A. [Mr Irving] With good reason, and because he is Jewish does not make
14him immune from my criticism.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] Precisely. But the fact that he is Jewish has nothing to
16do with your criticism either?
17A. [Mr Irving] I am perfectly entitled to make fun of his name among
18other ways of getting back at him.
19Q. [Mr Rampton] "I am bothered by their names". That is more people than
20just poor Mr Mike Wine, is it not?
21A. [Mr Irving] We had this in another speech too and I have listed a
22whole bunch of names, Wieseltier and so on.
23Q. [Mr Rampton] I am going to read on. Please be quiet. "I love them
24dearly, I really do, believe me. I love them very dearly,
25yet around the world they have these extraordinary names.
26In Australia the man who has defamed me so consistently
1has now received from my lawyers in West Australia four
2libel writs. His name is Mr Izzy Leibler".
3A. [Mr Irving] Leibler, L E I B L E R. That has been misspelt.
4Q. [Mr Rampton] "Laughter".
5A. [Mr Irving] Yes, if a man's name is Leibler and he has received from
6me four libel writs, it seems singularly apposite.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] Mr Irving, that is a perfectly decent joke. It is a pity
8it is misspelt, is it not?
9A. [Mr Irving] It has been consider in your copy but I know how to spell
10properly. His name is L E I B L E R and his brother, Mark
11Leibler, spells it the same way, oddly enough. They are
12both multi-millionaires and they have used their money to
13try and destroy my career in Australia.
14Q. [Mr Rampton] I am sorry, L I E B L E R?
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, it is misspelt. It is L E I. That is
16the point.
17MR RAMPTON: Oh I see.
18A. [Mr Irving] Which is pronounced by any normal person as "libeller".
19He is careful to pronounce it as "leebeller".
20MR RAMPTON: Let us pass on, Mr Irving. "If I had a name like
21wine, W H I N E, or Leibler, it reminds me of Brentwood
22School, where I want to school. Perhaps I ought not to
23read out the name of the school. There was a boy in our
24class called Bottomwetten".
25A. [Mr Irving] There is another one called Jack Straw.
26Q. [Mr Rampton]
1any other race, but because Mr Wiesenthal is apparently
2Jewish, I do not know, but he presumably is Jewish,
3therefore, you say it is anti-Jewish. It is not. It is
4anti-ugly.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] Mr Irving, now we are going to end with a bang. Turn
6back, please, to the top of page 16, will you?
7A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
8Q. [Mr Rampton] "I have found governments being involved in trying to
9silence me in Canada and South Africa and Australia and
10I never used to believe in the existence of an
11international Jewish conspiracy". Pause there. Who is
12Simon or Simon Wiesenthal? Who is Simon Wiesenthal?
13A. [Mr Irving] He is an Austrian who has no connection at all with the
14Simon Wiesenthal Centre.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] Is he Jewish?
16A. [Mr Irving] I presume he is, yes.
17Q. [Mr Rampton] Right, and so now we are going to see the context in which
18you put his Halloween mask. "I never used to believe in
19the existence of an international Jewish conspiracy, and
20I am not even sure even now if there is an international
21Jewish conspiracy. All I know is that people are
22conspiring internationally against me and they do turn out
23mostly to be" -- in fact, the word must have been "Jews",
24must it not?
25A. [Mr Irving] I do not know. It does not say.
26Q. [Mr Rampton] Oh, come on. Look at the syntax of the sentence.
. P-164
1A. [Mr Irving] OK, let us assume it was "Jews", yes.
2Q. [Mr Rampton] "Applause, applause"?
3A. [Mr Irving] But that is precisely what we are going to be
4demonstrating to the court in the next few days, how much
5this international endeavour has been, unfortunately,
6guided by the self-appointed leaders of that community.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] If you are going to attempt that, you will have to give me
8notice. It is no part of your pleading and I shall have
9something to say about it because it has nothing to do
10with Mrs Lipstadt.
11A. [Mr Irving] Well, you will see -- oh, and indeed it does and that is,
12undoubtedly, the reason why I have put in bundle E global.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that is a digression. We may have to
14come back to that.
15MR RAMPTON: A digression. But that inspiring observation,
16Mr Irving, was greeted with applause. Do you see that?
17A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
18Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you know why?
19A. [Mr Irving] Probably because they thought it was funny or that they
20were applauding the fact that I said there was no
21international Jewish conspiracy or because -- I do not
22know. What is your theory?
23Q. [Mr Rampton] They are very pleased that, in fact -- it is another of
24your clever, little sarcastic racist jokes about the Jews
25-- though you do not know there is an international
26Jewish conspiracy, it turns out most of the conspirators
. P-165
1are Jews?
2A. [Mr Irving] So, in other words, I am not allowed to criticise the fact
3that this community's self-appointed leaders around the
4world have set about trying to suppress freedom of speech,
5to abrogate my right to travel freely around the world,
6I am not allowed to criticise that because they are
7Jewish, is that right? On the contrary, if I find any
8person or any body of people, whether they are black or
9yellow or Asian or French or Germans or leading counsel,
10indeed, who are trying to abrogate my rights to freedom of
11speech and free right to travel, then I will criticise
12them without fear or favour. And the fact that this
13comment happens to be Jewish is neither here nor there. It
14cannot be construed as anti-Semitic.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] Shall we read on and see whether we agree with that,
16Mr Irving? "We have one basic problem and this is, apart
17from the literature displayed on the table over there, we
18have no national" -- I do not know who "we" are -- "organ
19that we can read to find out what is going on. I am not
20ashamed to say that I read the Jewish Chronicle to find
21out what they are doing because they seem pretty well
22informed". This is the sort of Aryan Defence League
23against the Jews, the "we", is it?
24A. [Mr Irving] Where do you get "Aryan Defence League" from?
25Q. [Mr Rampton] Well, who is the "we"?
26A. [Mr Irving] Well, I frequently find out what the Jewish organizations
. P-166
1are planning against me because it is announced in the
2Jewish Chronicle. They say, "Meet outside Mr Irving's
3flat, 81 Duke Street, 12.00 midday". That is how I know
4when these demonstrations are going to happen.
5Q. [Mr Rampton] It is not the Royal "we", Mr Irving. "I read the Jewish
6Chronicle to find out what we are doing". Who are the
7"we"?
8A. [Mr Irving] I have no idea.
9Q. [Mr Rampton] "There is an article here only a couple of weeks ago
10called 'Anti-Semites ask for cash in latest sophisticated
11forgery'" -- not, by any chance, the united anti-Semites
12then, the "we"?
13A. [Mr Irving] I have got no idea what the article is about.
14Q. [Mr Rampton] Well, you must have done because you mentioned it.
15A. [Mr Irving] Well, it certainly was not me so I cannot see what the
16reference is.
17Q. [Mr Rampton] "This is, of course, an unusual twist as it is not usually
18anti-Semites who are asking for cash in sophisticated
19forgeries. A man called Mr Mike Whine, the director of
20the board of deputies of British Jews", Mike W-H-I-N-E,
21you spell it ----
22A. [Mr Irving] You will appreciate the reason why I do not like Mike
23Whine because I discovered that he is the person who has
24dedicated much of his life to destroying my career and
25livelihood by now, and that those documents are also in
26the bundle.
. P-167
1Q. [Mr Rampton] I might not like the black man who is my enemy, but I am
2not likely to use the fact that he is black in order to
3defend myself, am I, Mr Irving?
4A. [Mr Irving] I do not criticise anybody because of their colour,
5Mr Rampton.
6Q. [Mr Rampton] Then why do you make such again with Mr Whine's name?
7A. [Mr Irving] Because I am defensive about the man. The man has spent
8many years trying to destroy me. He has maintained a
9dossier full of the most evil and defamatory and lying
10facts about me which he puts to foreign governments with
11the intention of destroying my career, as we now know.
12Q. [Mr Rampton] You do not like Mr Whine. I understand that.
13A. [Mr Irving] With good reason, and because he is Jewish does not make
14him immune from my criticism.
15Q. [Mr Rampton] Precisely. But the fact that he is Jewish has nothing to
16do with your criticism either?
17A. [Mr Irving] I am perfectly entitled to make fun of his name among
18other ways of getting back at him.
19Q. [Mr Rampton] "I am bothered by their names". That is more people than
20just poor Mr Mike Wine, is it not?
21A. [Mr Irving] We had this in another speech too and I have listed a
22whole bunch of names, Wieseltier and so on.
23Q. [Mr Rampton] I am going to read on. Please be quiet. "I love them
24dearly, I really do, believe me. I love them very dearly,
25yet around the world they have these extraordinary names.
26In Australia the man who has defamed me so consistently
. P-168
1has now received from my lawyers in West Australia four
2libel writs. His name is Mr Izzy Leibler".
3A. [Mr Irving] Leibler, L E I B L E R. That has been misspelt.
4Q. [Mr Rampton] "Laughter".
5A. [Mr Irving] Yes, if a man's name is Leibler and he has received from
6me four libel writs, it seems singularly apposite.
7Q. [Mr Rampton] Mr Irving, that is a perfectly decent joke. It is a pity
8it is misspelt, is it not?
9A. [Mr Irving] It has been consider in your copy but I know how to spell
10properly. His name is L E I B L E R and his brother, Mark
11Leibler, spells it the same way, oddly enough. They are
12both multi-millionaires and they have used their money to
13try and destroy my career in Australia.
14Q. [Mr Rampton] I am sorry, L I E B L E R?
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, it is misspelt. It is L E I. That is
16the point.
17MR RAMPTON: Oh I see.
18A. [Mr Irving] Which is pronounced by any normal person as "libeller".
19He is careful to pronounce it as "leebeller".
20MR RAMPTON: Let us pass on, Mr Irving. "If I had a name like
21wine, W H I N E, or Leibler, it reminds me of Brentwood
22School, where I want to school. Perhaps I ought not to
23read out the name of the school. There was a boy in our
24class called Bottomwetten".
25A. [Mr Irving] There is another one called Jack Straw.
26Q. [Mr Rampton]
. P-169
| << 1-6 | < 158-163 | 170-175 > | 169-175 >> |