Irving v. Lipstadt

 1MR RAMPTON:    Well, again, if Mr Irving wishes to challenge
 2Professor Evans, that no doubt will be flooding back into
 3the arena. For my part, again, one has to make judgments
 4in a case of this magnitude.
 5MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes. I quite understand.
 6MR RAMPTON:    Or we are going to be here for ever. I am, I am
 7afraid, not one of those advocates who takes every point
 8under the sun in the hope that something will come out.
 9If there are points on Evans' report that I have not
10taken, it is because I have made a deliberate decision not
11to.
12A. [Mr Irving]     I shall certainly be cross-examining Evans on matters
13relating to Dresden and putting documents to him.
14MR RAMPTON:    Might I enquire, before I sit down, through your
15Lordship of Mr Irving how long he expects that his
16cross-examination of Professor Evans might be?
17MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Evans or Browning?
18MR RAMPTON:    Evans. Both actually, because I need to schedule
19both of them.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Do you want to go back to your other role?
21< (The witness stood down)
22MR IRVING:    I now wear my other hat and say that, in view of
23the revelation today that the defence are not proposing to
24call Professors Levin and Eatwell, a lot of the
25cross-examination that would have fallen on them will now
26fall on Professor Evans, who relied in part on their

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 1expert reports.
 2MR JUSTICE GRAY:    You are perfectly entitled to cross-examine
 3any of the experts on anything subject to their
 4entitlement to say, "I have not a clue and I do not know
 5about that".
 6MR IRVING:    I can only do that of course if they are present.
 7I do not propose to subpoena them because I do not suppose
 8that would have much point.
 9MR JUSTICE GRAY:    You cannot do that for all sorts of reasons
10but there is no reason why you should not cross-examine
11Professor Evans about what is said in the other experts'
12reports that I am aware of anyway.
13MR IRVING:    I can put to Professor Evans the documents that
14I would have been putting to Professors Levin or Eatwell.
15It is an unsatisfactory state of affairs but it also means
16inevitably that Professor Evans had better check into a
17hotel for some length of time.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Shall we take them one at a time? Browning
19we have on Monday. His report is quite short, which is a
20virtue.
21MR IRVING:    Browning has many enemies around the world who have
22been funding me with material with which to challenge him.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY:    How long is the challenge going to take?
24MR IRVING:    Two days for Professor Browning, I think.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY:    That is Monday and Tuesday. Then Evans
26next?

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 1MR IRVING:    Yes. February 7th we have probably half an hour or
 2one hour of Sir John Kegan.
 3MR RAMPTON:    Maybe Mr Irving would like to take Sir John Kegan
 4first before we start on Browning?
 5MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I would think that is better.
 6MR IRVING:    That would make far more sense.
 7MR RAMPTON:    Browning for two days, which brings us to the end
 8of Tuesday, perhaps the beginning of Wednesday. Then
 9Mr Irving's day or whatever he needs to prepare, which
10would be Wednesday.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Start Professor Evans on Thursday.
12MR RAMPTON:    I would provisionally schedule Professor Evans for
13Thursday. That also has, from Mr Irving's point of view,
14the convenience that he then has three days off if he is a
15bit behind in prep, as some of us sometimes are, to get
16the ball rolling again on the following Monday.
17MR IRVING:    That is quite right. It sounds admirable.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY:    What you have not yet answered is the enquiry
19about how long you are likely to cross-examine Professor
20Evans for?
21MR IRVING:    I shall have to reschedule my thinking on that
22because I shall have now to go through my two filing
23cabinet drawers full of stuff that I was going to use
24against the other two and put it into the Evans slot. So
25it will be, I would say, probably four days.
26MR RAMPTON:    That is very helpful. That takes us to Wednesday

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 116th, I think. A day off will be the Thursday but, if I
 2schedule Dr Longerich for Friday 18th, there is a risk
 3that he will not be needed because Professor Evans does
 4not finish until Thursday.
 5MR IRVING:    Longerich is based in England, is he not?
 6MR RAMPTON:    He is partly based in England and partly in
 7Munich. If your Lordship would like me to, I will
 8provisionally schedule him for Friday 18th, subject to
 9Thursday being a clear day. If it is not, then we can
10bring him on Monday of the following week.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY:    He is kind of the last in the band anyway.
12MR RAMPTON:    He is the most flexible.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY:    He is the last too, is he not?
14MR RAMPTON:    No. There is Professor Funke, the Berlin
15political scientist.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes. We have it mapped out for a sufficient
17period of time to enable plans to be made.
18MR RAMPTON:    Yes we have.
19MR RAMPTON:    Yes certainly.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY:    So what now?
21MR RAMPTON:    I am bit sterile about ideas because I do not have
22further questions on anything else.
23MR IRVING:    You are not going to cross-examine on the
24Adjutants?
25MR RAMPTON:    No. I think probably I am not going to.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY:    When you say probably, it is getting towards

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 1the time when it has to be certain.
 2MR RAMPTON:    If I say I am not going to examine on the
 3Adjutants and then I come back next week and say, Oh,
 4I would like to cross-examine on the Adjutants, I foresee
 5a problem. I prefer to leave it in the air, although the
 6air in that particular balloon, if I do not do it now, is
 7probably going to be fairly restricted. Can I put it like
 8that?
 9MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes. I think that is right really.
10MR RAMPTON:    I well understand the problem.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I know you have had quite a task too.
12MR RAMPTON:    If I do not take the opportunity now I may have a
13problem, I well understand, in trying to find another way.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I am not going to make a ruling one way or
15the other at the moment.
16MR RAMPTON:    I am grateful for that.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I do not think it is a bad thing from
18Mr Irving's point of view or, to be honest, from my point
19of view if we have a short day today because I have fallen
20a bit behind, too.
21MR RAMPTON:    I am not only slightly behind, I am, like
22Mr Irving and no doubt your Lordship, quite tired as well
23so I would not at all mind.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Mr Irving, does it not really suit you quite
25well that we should have a short day?
26MR IRVING:    It does indeed, my Lord. I have a business to run

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 1and a family to run.
 2MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Of course. So what it comes to is 10.30 on
 3Monday.
 4MR RAMPTON:    I am grateful.
 5(Adjourned until 10.30 on Monday, 7th February 2000)
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