Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 16: Electronic Edition
Pages 171 - 176 of 176
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You quote in your report a passage about a complete
1liquidation of the Jews not possible to due to the frost.
2MR RAMPTON: It is the bottom of page 2, my Lord, above the
3little letters (a) and (b).
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see.
5A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Yes, the quote I made ends, and then they say there are
6two categories to distinguish German and Russian, and then
7they explain that the German Jews are much better workers
8than the Russian Jews, and that is a reason why there
9would be differentiated treatment.
10MR RAMPTON: My Lord, again this may be a document which it
11would repay having rather more translated of.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think in view of the point Mr Irving has
13just made, that would probably be right.
14MR RAMPTON: I think that must be right.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
16MR IRVING: We now come to a rather sensitive area which your
17Lordship may feel is not relevant, and this is the
18question to what extent did the local population
19participate in or even instigate the killings of Jews on
20the Eastern Front, the Russian front and in the Baltic
21countries, and to what extent were they themselves
22murderers? In other words, what percentage of the
23killings were their responsibility and what percentage
24went on to the Nazis?
25A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] That is the question you would like my affirmation on?
26Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
1A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] In terms of the pogroms that is something that was a brief
2phenomenon in the very opening days of the war, sometimes
3instigated by the Germans, sometimes starting
4spontaneously.
5Q. [Mr Irving] Are we talking about the Eastern Front or the Baltic
6countries?
7A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Both. Baltic countries is part I would say of the Eastern
8Front. More success, I guess more pogroms in some parts
9of the Ukraine and Lithuania than -- here I do not know
10the detail of where the pogroms occurred, but clearly they
11were supported and instigated by the Germans. How many
12were spontaneous would take a research that I have not
13gone into. What is more important is that by late July
14Himmler has approved the formation of auxiliary police
15units, that these police units reach about 30,000 by the
16end of 1941, about 300,000 by the end of 1942, and
17comprise one of the major manpower sources for why a small
18number of Einsatzgruppen ----
19Q. [Mr Irving] And they were not all engaged killing though, were they?
20A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] No. Many are in police stations, but they are at one
21point when it comes the day to kill the Jews in that
22region, often it is the local police that would be part of
23the liquidation process. They do not move about. Some
24do. There are two concepts: The ones kept in police
25stations and then there are the mobile battalions.
26Q. [Mr Irving] If I introduce the concept of the interregnum between the
1time that the Soviet troops pulled out of the Baltic
2countries and the Nazi troops arrive, a period of, say,
3one or two weeks?
4A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] I am not sure that it was that long in many places.
5Q. [Mr Irving] Was there much killing went on in that time?
6A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] That would have represented an infinitesimal fraction of
7the total number of Soviet Jews killed.
8Q. [Mr Irving] You are not familiar with the private diary Otto
9Reutigang?
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, before you go further, is this
11your best point? If there really were 300,000 of these
12people, Nazi ----
13MR IRVING: Auxiliaries.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- auxiliaries, how far are you going to get
15with the idea that it was the local population that was
16either participating or instigating.
17MR IRVING: I appreciate your objection, my Lord. I will not
18press that matter any further.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Press on if you want, but it seems me it is
20not perhaps a particularly good point.
21MR IRVING: My Lord, I have come to the end of my preparations
22for today's cross-examination. With respect, I would ask
23that, unless Mr Rampton has any further points to make, we
24will adjourn now.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I told you I will give you as much latitude
26as you reasonably want. You have gone quite
1expeditiously. So, Mr Rampton, you do not object to
2that?
3MR RAMPTON: I am absolutely relaxed about that. I would like
4to know because I have to get Professor Evans ready,
5whether we will finish with Professor Browning tomorrow.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sensible timetabling.
7MR IRVING: I think we will finish with Professor Browning
8tomorrow.
9MR RAMPTON: In that case, I will prepare to have Professor
10Evans here for Thursday.
11MR IRVING: I might want possibly one or two hours more on
12Thursday, but it is certainly not to inconvenience
13Professor Evans.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: One or two more hours more on Thursday with
15Professor Browning?
16MR IRVING: If I have not quite finished with him by then.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am just wondering whether he is not wanting
18to go off somewhere else.
19MR RAMPTON: He wants to go back home to America. So if he is
20not finished tomorrow, which is Tuesday, I would ask that
21he could be finished on Wednesday morning.
22MR IRVING: I was thinking Wednesday morning, yes.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: What we will do, Mr Irving, is we will carry
24on on Wednesday. Do not worry, you will get your day, but
25it may be a split day, if you follow me, a day's time for
26preparing Evans.
1MR IRVING: It makes sense for me to prepare properly the way I
2have for today.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. In the end it saves time which is
4why I think it is perfectly sensible.
5MR IRVING: Unless Mr Rampton wishes to cross-examine him now
6on some of the points I have made.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Re-examine.
8MR RAMPTON: No, I would not dream of cross-examining, even if
9I were allowed to.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I would let you, but I do not think it
11is actually sensible.
12MR RAMPTON: There is one little problem about Professor
13Evans. It probably does not matter enormously because
14I can use Friday with remaining cross-examination of
15Mr Irving. Professor Evans has rearranged everything
16because he thought we were not sitting on Friday. So he
17has, as it were, pushed everything into that one day. So
18even if he was started on Thursday I would ask him to be
19released for the Friday. Friday will not be wasted.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, do you have a view about that?
21MR IRVING: No, my Lord. I am in your Lordship's hands. I am
22much more relaxed than I was last week.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: The overall progress has actually been quite
24good.
25MR RAMPTON: Very good. My hope is that we are actually going
26to save about a month of the estimate, which means we
1might get a little time off to write our closing speeches.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: That may have been partly to due to a bit of
3prereading. It did save a bit of time. Then we will have
4Evans on Thursday and resume him on Monday.
5MR IRVING: My Lord, you must not forget that I have one more
6witness to call and that is Dr John Fox.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: You tell me when it is convenient for you to
8call him.
9MR IRVING: I will arrange with the Defence on a date for that.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, discuss it together. 10.30 tomorrow.
11< (The witness stood down).
12(The court adjourned until the following day)
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1liquidation of the Jews not possible to due to the frost.
2MR RAMPTON: It is the bottom of page 2, my Lord, above the
3little letters (a) and (b).
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see.
5A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Yes, the quote I made ends, and then they say there are
6two categories to distinguish German and Russian, and then
7they explain that the German Jews are much better workers
8than the Russian Jews, and that is a reason why there
9would be differentiated treatment.
10MR RAMPTON: My Lord, again this may be a document which it
11would repay having rather more translated of.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think in view of the point Mr Irving has
13just made, that would probably be right.
14MR RAMPTON: I think that must be right.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much.
16MR IRVING: We now come to a rather sensitive area which your
17Lordship may feel is not relevant, and this is the
18question to what extent did the local population
19participate in or even instigate the killings of Jews on
20the Eastern Front, the Russian front and in the Baltic
21countries, and to what extent were they themselves
22murderers? In other words, what percentage of the
23killings were their responsibility and what percentage
24went on to the Nazis?
25A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] That is the question you would like my affirmation on?
26Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
. P-171
1A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] In terms of the pogroms that is something that was a brief
2phenomenon in the very opening days of the war, sometimes
3instigated by the Germans, sometimes starting
4spontaneously.
5Q. [Mr Irving] Are we talking about the Eastern Front or the Baltic
6countries?
7A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Both. Baltic countries is part I would say of the Eastern
8Front. More success, I guess more pogroms in some parts
9of the Ukraine and Lithuania than -- here I do not know
10the detail of where the pogroms occurred, but clearly they
11were supported and instigated by the Germans. How many
12were spontaneous would take a research that I have not
13gone into. What is more important is that by late July
14Himmler has approved the formation of auxiliary police
15units, that these police units reach about 30,000 by the
16end of 1941, about 300,000 by the end of 1942, and
17comprise one of the major manpower sources for why a small
18number of Einsatzgruppen ----
19Q. [Mr Irving] And they were not all engaged killing though, were they?
20A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] No. Many are in police stations, but they are at one
21point when it comes the day to kill the Jews in that
22region, often it is the local police that would be part of
23the liquidation process. They do not move about. Some
24do. There are two concepts: The ones kept in police
25stations and then there are the mobile battalions.
26Q. [Mr Irving] If I introduce the concept of the interregnum between the
. P-172
1time that the Soviet troops pulled out of the Baltic
2countries and the Nazi troops arrive, a period of, say,
3one or two weeks?
4A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] I am not sure that it was that long in many places.
5Q. [Mr Irving] Was there much killing went on in that time?
6A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] That would have represented an infinitesimal fraction of
7the total number of Soviet Jews killed.
8Q. [Mr Irving] You are not familiar with the private diary Otto
9Reutigang?
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, before you go further, is this
11your best point? If there really were 300,000 of these
12people, Nazi ----
13MR IRVING: Auxiliaries.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- auxiliaries, how far are you going to get
15with the idea that it was the local population that was
16either participating or instigating.
17MR IRVING: I appreciate your objection, my Lord. I will not
18press that matter any further.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Press on if you want, but it seems me it is
20not perhaps a particularly good point.
21MR IRVING: My Lord, I have come to the end of my preparations
22for today's cross-examination. With respect, I would ask
23that, unless Mr Rampton has any further points to make, we
24will adjourn now.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: I told you I will give you as much latitude
26as you reasonably want. You have gone quite
. P-173
1expeditiously. So, Mr Rampton, you do not object to
2that?
3MR RAMPTON: I am absolutely relaxed about that. I would like
4to know because I have to get Professor Evans ready,
5whether we will finish with Professor Browning tomorrow.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sensible timetabling.
7MR IRVING: I think we will finish with Professor Browning
8tomorrow.
9MR RAMPTON: In that case, I will prepare to have Professor
10Evans here for Thursday.
11MR IRVING: I might want possibly one or two hours more on
12Thursday, but it is certainly not to inconvenience
13Professor Evans.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: One or two more hours more on Thursday with
15Professor Browning?
16MR IRVING: If I have not quite finished with him by then.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am just wondering whether he is not wanting
18to go off somewhere else.
19MR RAMPTON: He wants to go back home to America. So if he is
20not finished tomorrow, which is Tuesday, I would ask that
21he could be finished on Wednesday morning.
22MR IRVING: I was thinking Wednesday morning, yes.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: What we will do, Mr Irving, is we will carry
24on on Wednesday. Do not worry, you will get your day, but
25it may be a split day, if you follow me, a day's time for
26preparing Evans.
. P-174
1MR IRVING: It makes sense for me to prepare properly the way I
2have for today.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. In the end it saves time which is
4why I think it is perfectly sensible.
5MR IRVING: Unless Mr Rampton wishes to cross-examine him now
6on some of the points I have made.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Re-examine.
8MR RAMPTON: No, I would not dream of cross-examining, even if
9I were allowed to.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I would let you, but I do not think it
11is actually sensible.
12MR RAMPTON: There is one little problem about Professor
13Evans. It probably does not matter enormously because
14I can use Friday with remaining cross-examination of
15Mr Irving. Professor Evans has rearranged everything
16because he thought we were not sitting on Friday. So he
17has, as it were, pushed everything into that one day. So
18even if he was started on Thursday I would ask him to be
19released for the Friday. Friday will not be wasted.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, do you have a view about that?
21MR IRVING: No, my Lord. I am in your Lordship's hands. I am
22much more relaxed than I was last week.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: The overall progress has actually been quite
24good.
25MR RAMPTON: Very good. My hope is that we are actually going
26to save about a month of the estimate, which means we
. P-175
1might get a little time off to write our closing speeches.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: That may have been partly to due to a bit of
3prereading. It did save a bit of time. Then we will have
4Evans on Thursday and resume him on Monday.
5MR IRVING: My Lord, you must not forget that I have one more
6witness to call and that is Dr John Fox.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: You tell me when it is convenient for you to
8call him.
9MR IRVING: I will arrange with the Defence on a date for that.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, discuss it together. 10.30 tomorrow.
11< (The witness stood down).
12(The court adjourned until the following day)
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