Irving v. Lipstadt

 1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
 2Royal Courts of Justice
 3Strand, London
 4Tuesday, 8th February 2000
 5
 6Before:
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY
 8
 9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
10Claimant -and-
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
13Defendants
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
20
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
24
25PROCEEDINGS - DAY SEVENTEEN
26

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 1<Day 17Tuesday, 8th February 2000.
 2< PROFESSOR BROWNING, recalled.
 3< Cross-Examined by MR IRVING, continued.
 4MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Mr Irving, I think there is a suggestion that
 5we might at some stage amalgamate the documents really
 6relating to Professor Browning's evidence which at the
 7moment are in two separate places.
 8MR IRVING:    Miss Rogers has very kindly volunteered to do this
 9task and I willingly accept that.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I am just mentioning it to you in case you
11had any feelings on the topic, but I think it must be
12sensible. I wonder whether we might not keep the
13pagination? Otherwise the transcript will make very
14little sense. Can I leave that to you? Yes, Mr Irving?
15MR IRVING:    May it please the court, I have given your Lordship
16a little bundle of documents, on the basis of which I wish
17to cross-examine the witness this morning.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes. Let us decide where we are going to put
19those.
20MR IRVING:    Whatever occurs under the new regime, I think.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Temporarily it had better go into J or L,
22I do not mind which.
23MS ROGERS:    L.
24MR IRVING:    L. I think the simplest thing to do, Professor
25Browning, is if we just go through this heap in sequence.
26You will agree that the first few documents apparently

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 1come from the Himmler papers, is that correct?
 2A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They come from the administrative and economic main office
 3of the SS which is under Himmler.
 4Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Just pause a moment, Mr Irving, will you?
 6Yes, Mr Irving.
 7MR IRVING:    My Lord, I should explain the purpose of the
 8following questions is to go to the quantum, the figures
 9really. That is all I am looking at. It is Operation
10Reinhardt. These are documents from a file in Himmler's
11papers called Operation Reinhardt. (To the witness):
12Professor Browning, is it correct that these documents
13appear to come from the Hoover Library in California, if
14you look down the slash on the side?
15A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
16Q. [Mr Irving]     And can you recognize the initials of Heinrich Himmler on
17the top copy?
18A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
19Q. [Mr Irving]     So, in other words, this document is of high level, shall
20we say?
21A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Where are Himmler's initials?
23MR IRVING:    The HH under the word "Hehler" about three inches
24from the top right-hand side of the document.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes.
26MR IRVING:    I am purely interested in the very first line of

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 1the letter under the word "Reichsfuhrer", where it says:
 2No. 1. Then, when you translate the next sentence, this
 3"Bis 30.4.1943 sind angeliefert"?
 4A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Up until the 30th April 1943 had been delivered".
 5Q. [Mr Irving]     "Had been delivered the following", right?
 6A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 7Q. [Mr Irving]     If you look then at the list that follows, it is a number
 8of items, a rather sad list, I suppose, a tragic list, of
 9wristwatches, is that right, for men and women?
10A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
11Q. [Mr Irving]     Fountain pens?
12A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
13Q. [Mr Irving]     Razor blades and other valuable items, is that right?
14A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     These are all the sort of things that would have been in
15one's toiletries or personal possessions, yes.
16Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Where had these items come from?
17A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     These were formerly Jewish possessions, but I see nothing
18so far that says which camps they came from.
19Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Can I draw your attention to the reference line at
20the top of the transcript, the Verwertung, the
21exploitation of -- then comes one of their stock phrases,
22is it not, "Jewish plundering loot", is that correct?
23A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In fact, I have not seen that first phrase, but the
24"Diebesguts", the stolen goods, yes.
25Q. [Mr Irving]     This is the way that they sought to legitimate what they
26are doing, is that correct?

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 1A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, their stance was all that Jewish property had been
 2stolen by Jews originally, so they were repossessing they
 3claimed what was properly German property.
 4Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, a very distorted, perverse, kind of thinking, right?
 5A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     A rationale that appears.
 6MR JUSTICE GRAY:    How does this help on numbers?
 7MR IRVING:    It helps on numbers, my Lord, because we have
 8numbers of items that had been collected from the victims
 9by April 30th 1943.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY:    It does not say "from when".
11MR IRVING:    I am hoping that the witness will assist us on
12this.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Let us ask.
14MR IRVING:    Where did these items come from, these valuables?
15Did they come from victims of Operation Reinhardt?
16A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I see nothing in the document that says Operation
17Reinhardt.
18Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well. Can I take you, therefore, to page 4, the
19handwritten number at the bottom?
20A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
21Q. [Mr Irving]     And you will notice in the third line of the letterhead
22the initials "Reinh." in the top left-hand corner?
23A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Reinh", yes.
24Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I take you to page 10, and on the same letter head
25also we have Reinhardt?
26A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Those two documents do have the "Reinh.".

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