Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 17: Electronic Edition
Pages 209 - 214 of 214
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You will notice it has the top State Secret classification
1on it?
2A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] This has Geheim, yes.
3Q. [Mr Irving] Would I be right in saying that all SS documents are very
4pernickety about the classification of security on them,
5an that the Foreign Office and other bodies were less
6pernickety about the security grade placed on them?
7A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] I do not think I could say that. I notice here that this
8is 48 copies. They may have wanted to stamp it so those
9who were getting, given the number in circulation, that
10they would be very careful with it. That is speculation,
11but I do not know that SS had a tendency to use the Top
12Secret stamp more than the Foreign Office.
13Q. [Mr Irving] Is this document typed in the special Fuhrer typewriter?
14A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] No, it is not.
15Q. [Mr Irving] Have you ever seen any Event Reports typed in this special
16Fuhrer typewriter for submission to Hitler?
17A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Nothing, except the No. 51 we have talked about.
18Q. [Mr Irving] Is that called an Event Report?
19A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] No.
20Q. [Mr Irving] Or is it called Meldung Fuhrer?
21A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] That is a report to the Fuhrer.
22Q. [Mr Irving] Is there any indication on this document that it was shown
23to the Fuhrer or submitted to the Fuhrer, like vorgelegt?
24A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] No.
25Q. [Mr Irving] Thank you.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why would just the one document have been
1typed out in the large type for the Fuhrer and marked
2vorgelegt?
3A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Why were these not typed out?
4Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Sorry, that was a rather badly phrased question. Does the
5fact that there is only one such document extant indicate
6that there only ever was one document?
7A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Given the destruction of documents, particularly, say, in
8Eichmann's office and in the SS, it leaves open the
9question that there was a file of such things, and they
10were destroyed. We do not know.
11MR IRVING: My Lord, I answer that. There is in fact an
12extensive file of such reports to the Fuhrer, but they
13cover everything like the midget torpedo attack on
14Turpids. It is the whole gamut.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure there are. I was talking only about
16reports from the Einsatzgruppen.
17MR IRVING: That is only one I have seen also.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I appreciate it is the only one anyone knows
19about. I was wondering whether that suggested that there
20only ever was one, but the Professor says not. No more
21questions?
22MR IRVING: No further questions.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Browning, thank you very much. You
24are free to go.
25< (The witness stood down).
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are going to resume at 10.30 on ----
1MR RAMPTON: I think Professor Evans will be here on Thursday.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you wanting to interpolate some witness
3of your own before him?
4MR IRVING: We have Dr John Fox.
5MR RAMPTON: Whatever you like.
6MR IRVING: I am only going to ask Mr Rampton whether he was
7going to cross-examine me further and, if so, when?
8MR RAMPTON: I will not only say when but I hope what, because
9it is the last things I have to ask about. I was hoping
10to do it on Friday, so as to get it out of the way, but
11I am in other people's hands.
12MR IRVING: Can you say about how long you will be
13cross-examining?
14MR RAMPTON: I do not think it will take all that long.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: What are the topics?
16MR RAMPTON: The topics are, well, there is the question of
17Mr Irving's knowledge of that Muller signal to the
18Einsatzgruppen. I do not accept his answer that he has
19not seen it before, and there is a reason for that which
20I shall not say what it is now, apart from the fact that
21it appears to have been in the public domain for nearly 20
22years.
23MR IRVING: I have been in the public domain for 62 years.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are not going to have the
25cross-examination now.
26MR RAMPTON: That I think we have dealt with. So that has
1gone. There is Zamus report of 16th December 1942 which
2appeared and then disappeared because your Lordship said
3Mr Irving needed more time.
4MR IRVING: Also you should reveal where it came from.
5MR RAMPTON: That is happening and I hope that will be in place
6by Friday. There is Anne Frank that I forgot about out of
7Evans and also van Pelt, and I think I ought to ask a
8couple of questions, it is quite short. Then there is,
9again which I hope I can keep quite short, the question of
10Mr Irving's associates, if I may call them that.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
12MR RAMPTON: That will certainly be completed in a day or
13perhaps less.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: My slight feeling, and it is up to Mr Irving
15in the end, well, I suppose it is up to me in the end, but
16I wonder whether it is right to interrupt his
17cross-examination ----
18MR RAMPTON: I agree.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- of really your major witness,.
20MR IRVING: May I suggest that I bring Dr Fox on Thursday?
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you are going to do that bring him first
22off.
23MR RAMPTON: Can I say not, because I think I told your
24Lordship Professor Evans is in real difficulty on Friday.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
26MR RAMPTON: Which is why I am proposing -- if your Lordship
1wants to leave Friday blank I quite understand the reason
2why, nothing personally, but from Mr Irving' point of
3view, then he has three clear days to gather himself again
4for a renewed assault on Professor Evans on Monday.
5Alternatively Dr. Fox might come on Friday, but it seems a
6bit of a ----
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: That I would not have so much difficulty
8with, because Fox, frankly, I do not quite know what he is
9going to say, but he has not a major problem for Mr Irving
10in terms of preparation.
11MR RAMPTON: Absolutely certainly not, and none for me because
12I am not going to cross-examine him.
13MR IRVING: You do not what he is going to say yet.
14MR RAMPTON: Of course I do. I have read his witness
15statement.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: So I have but I have forgotten what is in it.
17MR RAMPTON: Something about free speech I think.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we just plan the timetable? On
19Thursday we will have Evans all day. On Friday we will
20Fox for as long as he takes. Then we will resume with
21Evans on Monday. We will have the cross-examination of
22yourself at a later date to be fixed.
23MR RAMPTON: That means only one more day and a tiny bit in
24court this week I think.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which I think at this stage of the case is
26not such a bad thing.
1MR IRVING: Preparation of Evans is complicated by the fact
2that I now have to shoe-horn the material which I have
3prepared for Levin and Eatwell into the Evans
4cross-examination.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are giving you a day tomorrow and then you
6are going to have most of Friday.
7MR IRVING: Very well.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you happy with that because tell me if
9you are not?
10MR IRVING: So Fox on Thursday?
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Fox on Friday morning.
12MR RAMPTON: If he can manage it.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Tell me if it turns out to create any
14problems for you.
15MR RAMPTON: We do not mind, my Lord. If Mr Irving would
16rather have Dr Fox here on Thursday we do not mind.
17MR IRVING: No.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is quite a good idea to have him
19on Friday. So we are not sitting tomorrow but we are
20sitting on Thursday.
21(The court adjourned until Thursday, 19th February 2000)
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1on it?
2A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] This has Geheim, yes.
3Q. [Mr Irving] Would I be right in saying that all SS documents are very
4pernickety about the classification of security on them,
5an that the Foreign Office and other bodies were less
6pernickety about the security grade placed on them?
7A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] I do not think I could say that. I notice here that this
8is 48 copies. They may have wanted to stamp it so those
9who were getting, given the number in circulation, that
10they would be very careful with it. That is speculation,
11but I do not know that SS had a tendency to use the Top
12Secret stamp more than the Foreign Office.
13Q. [Mr Irving] Is this document typed in the special Fuhrer typewriter?
14A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] No, it is not.
15Q. [Mr Irving] Have you ever seen any Event Reports typed in this special
16Fuhrer typewriter for submission to Hitler?
17A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Nothing, except the No. 51 we have talked about.
18Q. [Mr Irving] Is that called an Event Report?
19A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] No.
20Q. [Mr Irving] Or is it called Meldung Fuhrer?
21A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] That is a report to the Fuhrer.
22Q. [Mr Irving] Is there any indication on this document that it was shown
23to the Fuhrer or submitted to the Fuhrer, like vorgelegt?
24A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] No.
25Q. [Mr Irving] Thank you.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why would just the one document have been
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1typed out in the large type for the Fuhrer and marked
2vorgelegt?
3A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Why were these not typed out?
4Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Sorry, that was a rather badly phrased question. Does the
5fact that there is only one such document extant indicate
6that there only ever was one document?
7A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning] Given the destruction of documents, particularly, say, in
8Eichmann's office and in the SS, it leaves open the
9question that there was a file of such things, and they
10were destroyed. We do not know.
11MR IRVING: My Lord, I answer that. There is in fact an
12extensive file of such reports to the Fuhrer, but they
13cover everything like the midget torpedo attack on
14Turpids. It is the whole gamut.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure there are. I was talking only about
16reports from the Einsatzgruppen.
17MR IRVING: That is only one I have seen also.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I appreciate it is the only one anyone knows
19about. I was wondering whether that suggested that there
20only ever was one, but the Professor says not. No more
21questions?
22MR IRVING: No further questions.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Browning, thank you very much. You
24are free to go.
25< (The witness stood down).
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are going to resume at 10.30 on ----
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1MR RAMPTON: I think Professor Evans will be here on Thursday.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you wanting to interpolate some witness
3of your own before him?
4MR IRVING: We have Dr John Fox.
5MR RAMPTON: Whatever you like.
6MR IRVING: I am only going to ask Mr Rampton whether he was
7going to cross-examine me further and, if so, when?
8MR RAMPTON: I will not only say when but I hope what, because
9it is the last things I have to ask about. I was hoping
10to do it on Friday, so as to get it out of the way, but
11I am in other people's hands.
12MR IRVING: Can you say about how long you will be
13cross-examining?
14MR RAMPTON: I do not think it will take all that long.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: What are the topics?
16MR RAMPTON: The topics are, well, there is the question of
17Mr Irving's knowledge of that Muller signal to the
18Einsatzgruppen. I do not accept his answer that he has
19not seen it before, and there is a reason for that which
20I shall not say what it is now, apart from the fact that
21it appears to have been in the public domain for nearly 20
22years.
23MR IRVING: I have been in the public domain for 62 years.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are not going to have the
25cross-examination now.
26MR RAMPTON: That I think we have dealt with. So that has
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1gone. There is Zamus report of 16th December 1942 which
2appeared and then disappeared because your Lordship said
3Mr Irving needed more time.
4MR IRVING: Also you should reveal where it came from.
5MR RAMPTON: That is happening and I hope that will be in place
6by Friday. There is Anne Frank that I forgot about out of
7Evans and also van Pelt, and I think I ought to ask a
8couple of questions, it is quite short. Then there is,
9again which I hope I can keep quite short, the question of
10Mr Irving's associates, if I may call them that.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
12MR RAMPTON: That will certainly be completed in a day or
13perhaps less.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: My slight feeling, and it is up to Mr Irving
15in the end, well, I suppose it is up to me in the end, but
16I wonder whether it is right to interrupt his
17cross-examination ----
18MR RAMPTON: I agree.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- of really your major witness,.
20MR IRVING: May I suggest that I bring Dr Fox on Thursday?
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you are going to do that bring him first
22off.
23MR RAMPTON: Can I say not, because I think I told your
24Lordship Professor Evans is in real difficulty on Friday.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
26MR RAMPTON: Which is why I am proposing -- if your Lordship
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1wants to leave Friday blank I quite understand the reason
2why, nothing personally, but from Mr Irving' point of
3view, then he has three clear days to gather himself again
4for a renewed assault on Professor Evans on Monday.
5Alternatively Dr. Fox might come on Friday, but it seems a
6bit of a ----
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: That I would not have so much difficulty
8with, because Fox, frankly, I do not quite know what he is
9going to say, but he has not a major problem for Mr Irving
10in terms of preparation.
11MR RAMPTON: Absolutely certainly not, and none for me because
12I am not going to cross-examine him.
13MR IRVING: You do not what he is going to say yet.
14MR RAMPTON: Of course I do. I have read his witness
15statement.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: So I have but I have forgotten what is in it.
17MR RAMPTON: Something about free speech I think.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we just plan the timetable? On
19Thursday we will have Evans all day. On Friday we will
20Fox for as long as he takes. Then we will resume with
21Evans on Monday. We will have the cross-examination of
22yourself at a later date to be fixed.
23MR RAMPTON: That means only one more day and a tiny bit in
24court this week I think.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which I think at this stage of the case is
26not such a bad thing.
. P-213
1MR IRVING: Preparation of Evans is complicated by the fact
2that I now have to shoe-horn the material which I have
3prepared for Levin and Eatwell into the Evans
4cross-examination.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are giving you a day tomorrow and then you
6are going to have most of Friday.
7MR IRVING: Very well.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you happy with that because tell me if
9you are not?
10MR IRVING: So Fox on Thursday?
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Fox on Friday morning.
12MR RAMPTON: If he can manage it.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Tell me if it turns out to create any
14problems for you.
15MR RAMPTON: We do not mind, my Lord. If Mr Irving would
16rather have Dr Fox here on Thursday we do not mind.
17MR IRVING: No.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is quite a good idea to have him
19on Friday. So we are not sitting tomorrow but we are
20sitting on Thursday.
21(The court adjourned until Thursday, 19th February 2000)
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