Irving v. Lipstadt

 1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
 2Royal Courts of Justice
 3Strand, London
 4Thursday, 10th February 2000
 5
 6Before:
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY
 8
 9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
10Claimant -and-
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
13Defendants
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
20
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company,Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
24
25PROCEEDINGS - DAY EIGHTEEN
26

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 1<Day 18 Thursday, 10th February 2000.
 2(10.30 a.m.)
 3MR JUSTICE GRAY:    May it please the court. Two or three minor
 4housekeeping matters.
 5MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes.
 6MR IRVING:    Your Lordship requested yesterday or the day before
 7yesterday, you expressed an interest in that remark by
 8Hans Frank at the Nuremberg trial where he said that he
 9had discussed it with the Fuhrer on February 2nd 1944.
10Your Lordship said you would like to see the passage
11concerned. That is the top document in the heap which
12I have left your Lordship there.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Thank you.
14MR IRVING:    In order that your Lordship can see the passage
15concerned, I have put it into bold face, and it is about
1610 pages in, I think. It is easier to find -- it is three
17pages from the end, my Lord.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes, thank you.
19MR RAMPTON:    Maybe your Lordship has something I have not.
20MR IRVING:    It is there.
21MR RAMPTON:    Thank you very much.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY:    It is in bold.
23MR IRVING:    I have put in bold, that particular passage. The
24entire document is of interest and it may well be that
25Mr Rampton will wish to ask questions about it. It is
26Hans Frank, who is the Governor General, which is not

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 1where Auschwitz was situated, of course, the Governor
 2General, but he is relating his own experiences and how he
 3learned, first of all, of the rumours from radio
 4broadcasts, which may seem extraordinary and how he then
 5went to discuss them with Hitler.
 6MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes, thank you.
 7MR IRVING:    The second point is ----
 8MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Sorry to interrupt you, but where shall we
 9put this?
10MR IRVING:    Miss Rogers will, undoubtedly, have a suggestion to
11make of a proper nature.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes. She is in charge.
13MR RAMPTON:    Probably in the J file somewhere or other. At the
14back of tab 7 of L1(iv) for the present.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Hang on, this is, in effect, an Auschwitz
16document.
17MR IRVING:    It is.
18MR RAMPTON:    Is it?
19MR JUSTICE GRAY:    So we do not want to put it in a ----
20MR RAMPTON:    I do not think it is an Auschwitz document.
21MR IRVING:    It is. It goes to Auschwitz and Hitler's knowledge
22of Auschwitz. It is actually the question of the final
23link. Your Lordship may read this document either way, of
24course. You may hold it against me, in fact, that Frank
25is discussing this with Hitler.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I am not going to try to absorb it now

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 1because it maybe you will want to pick this up with
 2Professor Evans.
 3MR RAMPTON:    It is Hitler knowledge, really, because it
 4reflects back on the suggestion that Frank was told by
 5Hitler ----
 6MR IRVING:    I agree.
 7MR RAMPTON:    --- or one of Hitler's people on 12th December
 81941.
 9MR JUSTICE GRAY:    So you stick with L as being the appropriate
10place?
11MR RAMPTON:    Yes, I would stick with L for the moment. L1, tab
128, I am now told.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Of 8, you are saying?
14MR RAMPTON:    If there is a tab 8.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I know we are taking time on this, but it is
16really important that one has the documents in some sort
17of order. Yes, Mr Irving. Next one?
18MR IRVING:    The next point is that yesterday evening at about
198.30 p.m. there was delivered to me by courier from the
20Defendants a very large bundle of papers once again for
21which Mr Rampton would say, I attach no blame
22whatsoever to the other parties; obviously, this is an
23action where that kind of thing happens.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Well, I am not so sure about that, but I will
25guard my tongue at the moment.
26MR IRVING:    Basically, it was answers to questions which I

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 1had asked of today's witness, Professor Evans, on January
 22nd and January 3rd this year, around about that date, and
 3here we are five weeks later; they have now delivered a
 4response of probably 150, something like that, pages.
 5MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Sorry. You say you asked questions of
 6Professor Evans on a previous occasion?
 7MR RAMPTON:    Written questions.
 8MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I do not think I have seen that.
 9MR RAMPTON:    It is perfectly all right within the rules.
10MR IRVING:    Within the rules and with the aim of speeding
11things up.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I do not think I have seen the product of
13your questions.
14MR IRVING:    Well, the product was delivered to me last night.
15It covers really the first 200 pages of his expert report
16which means I cannot today address myself specifically to
17those pages of his report. It would be a nonsense.
18MR RAMPTON:    That is perfectly reasonable. In fact, the
19answers run only to six pages, I think.
20MR IRVING:    Yes.
21MR RAMPTON:    The rest is what you might call supporting
22documentation.
23MR IRVING:    Very well.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY:    But why has this come ----
25MR RAMPTON:    Because Professor ----
26MR JUSTICE GRAY:    --- within hours of Professor Evans getting

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 1into the witness box.
 2MR RAMPTON:    Because Professor Evans is a busy man and he has
 3only just answered them. I cannot answer them for him.
 4MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Well, that, of course, I understand.
 5MR IRVING:    I make no criticism of that, my Lord. Obviously,
 6we both have our professional lives to lead, but for this
 7reason it would be pointless for me to cross-examine him
 8on those pages as I certainly shall.
 9MR RAMPTON:    That I accept.
10MR IRVING:    Because he may very well have answered the matters
11in the meantime. But today I was going to discuss more
12general matters with him. We were going to set the scene
13as far as we possibly can.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes, but may I just say something about your
15cross-examination? I have spent many hours, to put it no
16higher, on day 16 and day 17 which is, basically, your
17cross-examination of Professor Browning.
18MR IRVING:    Yes.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Your questions, if I may say so, are clear,
20almost always to the point, but what I would find helpful
21is if you would usually make a point of, if you can,
22directing me to the document that you are cross-examining
23on, or invite the Defendants to direct me to the document
24you are cross-examining on, because you probably
25understand when I go through the transcript (and I am much
26less knowledgeable than you and, indeed, than the

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