Irving v. Lipstadt

    Mr Irving was worried about that. We now know
 1himself which I think he gave on 2nd July 1964.
 2MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Is Kinna the signatory of the document?
 3MR RAMPTON:    He is the man who wrote the report, yes. Although
 4I cannot possibly read it, I am your Lordship cannot
 5either, maybe Mr Irving can, these are the handwritten
 6notes of the hearing. What, in effect, we are told they
 7do is to show that Kinna himself verified the contents of
 8his report.
 9MR JUSTICE GRAY:    In what context?
10MR RAMPTON:    He was a witness at a trial.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY:    He was a witness as a prosecution of a ----
12MR RAMPTON:    Yes, so I understood, at Frankfurt. The last
13document in this little clip is, I think, not connected.
14It is a letter, I think, from Hans Frank to Heinrich
15Himmler dated 23rd June 1942.
16MR IRVING:    It is from Viktor Brach.
17MR RAMPTON:    You are quite right. It is in the top lefthand
18corner, but I do not know what it says because I have not
19read it yet.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Right.
21MR IRVING:    My Lord, can I revert to the submission I was
22making about the Kinna document?
23MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes, absolutely. That is what we are on now.
24MR IRVING:    I am not going to challenge the integrity of the
25document because I am not in a position to do so, but I am
26going to deal with that handwritten document which your

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 1Lordship was just looking at which was the 1963 trial
 2where Kinna was asked about the document. I have
 3deciphered the handwriting at the end I will translate it
 4very rapidly: "Says the witness Kinna" ----
 5MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Pause. I have not got there yet.
 6MR IRVING:    It has a number of numbers on it, and it has an
 7upside down page 11 at the top left-hand side corner. The
 8final paragraph, the final two paragraphs, translate as
 9follows: "The witness Kinna confirmed the accuracy of the
10report. He answered the questions put to him by the
11lawyer Professor Dr Kaul". K-A-U-L.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I am so sorry.
13MR RAMPTON:    My Lord I am sorry, the clip has not been
14paginated which is annoying. It is the second of two ----
15MR IRVING:    Two handwritten pages.
16MR RAMPTON:    --- handwritten page. It has a fax page 10 in the
17top righthand corner.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I have it. I cannot see the upside-down 11.
19MR RAMPTON:    You do not have to struggle with that.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes, sorry, Mr Irving?
21MR IRVING:    I will repeat it. "The witness Kinna confirmed the
22accuracy of the report". This is two paragraphs from the
23bottom, "The witness Kinna" ----
24MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I see.
25MR IRVING:    --- "confirmed the accuracy of the report. He
26answered the questions put to him, the expanding

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 1questions, the amplifying questions, put to him by the
 2lawyer Professor Dr Kaul. To the correction of the
 3witness, no further motions were put", or it could be
 4either "correction" or on the swearing of the witness, but
 5that is unimportant. What concerns me is the final
 6paragraph: "The witness was sworn in, and in agreement
 7with both parties he was released".
 8    I shall draw attention to that. I do not think
 9this is a proper time to draw attention. The significance
10is the fact that this witness, to what is obviously a
11criminal document, is questioned only as to the accuracy
12of the document and is then released by all the parties,
13including the public prosecutor.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Well, I am not saying you are wrong about
15that. My reaction to it would be that that is simply what
16happens when a witness is finished giving his evidence.
17MR IRVING:    Yes, except that, since your Lordship has put it
18that way, I would comment on the remarkable fact that here
19is a man who has obviously been engaged in a criminal
20undertaking who could possibly have struck a bargain,
21shall I put it like that, that if he will testify to the
22accuracy of the document, then no further charges will be
23laid against him.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY:    So your position on what we are calling the
25Kinna report is that, yes, it is an authentic document.
26MR IRVING:    For the purposes of this trial, my Lord.

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 1MR JUSTICE GRAY:    But you query whether it was not the product
 2of a plea bargain.
 3MR IRVING:    My Lord, I am not challenging the integrity of the
 4document. I cannot because I do not have sufficient
 5apparatus to challenge it. Having read the document, I do
 6not think it seriously damages my position in this case.
 7So, for the purpose of the case, I am going to ask
 8questions on its contents as though it were genuine.
 9MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Again I ask where shall we put this?
10MR RAMPTON:    This is an Auschwitz document. I suggest it goes
11in tab 4 of K2.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Thank you very much.
13MR RAMPTON:    Chronologically, we will have declip it and sort
14it out. I suggest it goes as a lump in wherever the date
15is, 16.12.42. I cannot help on that because I have not
16got my K2 here.
17MR IRVING:    The final problem, my Lord ----
18MR RAMPTON:    Can I just finish? I am sorry, I am not trying to
19be discourteous. I do have a translation as well of the
20Kinna document.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Thank you very much.
22MR RAMPTON:    There is one for the judge and one for Mr Irving.
23He ought to see that in case he does not agree with it.
24(Same handed).
25MR IRVING:    My Lord the fourth matter concerns the document
26which you are familiar with, which is August 1st 1941 from

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 1Muller to the Einsatzgruppen chiefs about which we spent
 2some discussion.
 3MR JUSTICE GRAY:    And about the authenticity of it.
 4MR IRVING:    A serious problem has arisen because I contacted
 5the West German archives, your Lordship will see that the
 6second page of that little bundle I gave you, the bundle
 7beginning with the words "from Monday", the second page of
 8that is headed "translation", does your Lordship have the
 9page?
10MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes.
11MR IRVING:    A letter from me on February 7th this year to the
12German Federal Archives saying, this is a translation:
13There is a big trial in London. I need an original copy
14of the following document. I give the reference number
15which is given by our witnesses in their bundles.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes.
17MR IRVING:    I need it immediately. Crystal Brown is going to
18be for the next three days only in the witness box. Could
19you please fax the documents, we need them in facsimile.
20I attach importance if possible to seeing the original
21documents rather than printed versions, as your Lordship
22appreciates. They replied to me yesterday, saying that
23document is not in the file. And to clarify any
24ambiguities as to what that letter meant, I spoke with
25Dr Lens yesterday of the German Federal Archives in Berlin
26and he said, yes, that means this document is not in the

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