Irving v. Lipstadt

 1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
 2Royal Courts of Justice
 3Strand, London
 4Monday, 14th February 2000
 5
 6Before:
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY
 8
 9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
10Claimant -and-
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
13Defendants
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
20
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
24PROCEEDINGS - DAY NINETEEN
25
26

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 1<Day 19) Monday, 14th February 2000
 2MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes, Mr Irving.
 3MR IRVING:    May it please the court. I have given your
 4Lordship a little bundle of documents. That is a bundle
 5of translations, my Lord, is that right, which your
 6Lordship asked for, the Kommissar order and various other
 7documents. I do not think your Lordship needs to look at
 8it now, but your Lordship did ask for the translations.
 9MR JUSTICE GRAY:    That is very kind of you. Thank you. The
10usual question, where should it go?
11MR RAMPTON:    We do not have them.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Where is the Kommissar order in German?
13MR IRVING:    I have a set of copies for the Defence, but
14I forgot to bring them.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Could somebody look out where the Kommissar
16order is in German?
17MR RAMPTON:    We do not have the translations, so I do not know
18what document it is.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Do you remember the Kommissar order being
20referred to? I am not actually sure we have it in German
21either. Anyway, can I leave it with you?
22MR IRVING:    Yes, guidelines and Kommissar order.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes.
24MR RAMPTON:    The one of May 1941, is that the one?
25MR IRVING:    That is correct, yes.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY:    June, I think.

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 1MR IRVING:    My Lord, I have also given you a little bundle
 2which I have called temporarily bundle F, Professor
 3Evans. These are documents which, in the course of
 4cross-examination, I intend to put to Professor Evans.
 5MR JUSTICE GRAY:    It is very helpful to have them all in one
 6place.
 7MR IRVING:    I have provided the defence with four or five sets.
 8MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Thank you.
 9MR RAMPTON:    My Lord, there is something I should wish to
10mention, if I may. I do it now because time is getting
11short.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes.
13MR RAMPTON:    I received on Sunday, yesterday, what purports to
14be a further witness statement of Dr Fox.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes.
16MR RAMPTON:    Has your Lordship been sent that?
17MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I do not think so, no.
18MR RAMPTON:    I think your Lordship should be given a copy.
19MR IRVING:    I have a copy but in fact I decided not to call
20that witness. I should say that now in fact.
21MR RAMPTON:    That is helpful. I can sit down and be quiet.
22MR IRVING:    Quite simply, the witness was going to testify on
23two matters. One was what Mr Rampton referred to as
24freedom of speech matters, and I was also going to add to
25that the police decodes, but I decided on balance that
26I know as much about the police decodes as he does. We

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 1have both worked on the same body, so I think it would
 2help to save the court's time if we do not call him and
 3just rely on his written statement.
 4MR JUSTICE GRAY:    It is a matter for you, obviously.
 5MR IRVING:    My Lord, I now wish to continue the
 6cross-examination of Professor Evans.
 7< PROFESSOR EVANS, Recalled
 8< Cross-examined by MR IRVING, continued.
 9MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes. Professor Evans, come back into the
10witness box. I wondered before you start, Mr Irving, if
11I might ask one question that is in my mind of Professor
12Evans. It is this. You were asked, you remember, on
13Thursday what material of Mr Irving's you had been
14studying in order to arrive at the conclusions you arrived
15at in your written report.
16A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes.
17Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Your answer was that you had focused, at any rate, on what
18Mr Irving described as the chain of documents on which he
19relies for his contention that Hitler was relatively
20friendly towards the Jews. I should know myself the
21answer to this, but where does Mr Irving make his
22reference to the chain of documents? I think it is his
23phrase, is it not?
24A. [Professor Richard John Evans]     Yes, it is.
25Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I simply cannot remember where and when he made that
26reference.

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 1MR IRVING:    My Lord, perhaps I can help? I have made reference
 2in various speeches to the chain of documents of course,
 3and talks, and probably in the introduction to ----
 4MR RAMPTON:    Your Lordship will find it on page 220 of
 5Professor Evans's report at paragraph 4.3A(1).
 6MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Now that is on the transcript, that may
 7really be enough, but can I go to it?
 8MR RAMPTON:    BBC Television in June 1977.
 9MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I think that is sufficient, Professor Evans.
10Thank you. Yes, Mr Irving. Do you want to pause and find
11it? It will be quicker if you have it, I suspect.
12MR IRVING:    I made a number of sets for the gentlemen of the
13press this morning so that they can follow what we are
14doing, because there were complaints about that, my Lord.
15Today I intend to continue to explore in general, if I can
16just in two lines tell you what I am going to be doing,
17the credibility of the witness with special reference to
18the remarks that he has made about my methodology in the
19introductory parts of his report. We will certainly cover
20the first 100 to 150 pages of the report today, my Lord.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY:    You must take your own course, but bear in
22mind in the end I am anxious to look at the individual
23criticisms as well as the general comments.
24MR IRVING:    Yes. (To the witness): Professor Evans, today is
25the 55th anniversary of the air raid on Dresden. Would
26you have described that as a Holocaust?

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