Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 19: Electronic Edition
Pages 212 - 217 of 217
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Why would anybody create an epidemic deliberately in a
1camp?
2A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I did not say they created the epidemic. I said that they
3created the conditions. I mean, they knew full well what
4would ----
5Q. [Mr Irving] They deliberately created epidemic conditions?
6A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They full knew what would happen in those filthy
7conditions which they ----
8Q. [Mr Irving] They negligently created epidemic conditions?
9A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think it was a matter of oversight on their part,
10Mr Irving.
11Q. [Mr Irving] Have you read Professor van Pelt's book on Auschwitz in
12which he describes in great detail the negligence of the
13designers in this respect?
14A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have to admit I have not, no.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: In what respect in the design of?
16MR IRVING: The layout of the camp. They said it was inviting
17epidemics, the way it was designed. The prisoners had to
18march long distances in order to get to hygiene
19facilities, and so on.
20A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That would seem to confirm my point of view.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is rather what I thought, yes. I mean,
22does that not rather suggest that they were not too
23concerned about epidemics breaking out?
24MR IRVING: Through negligence they have the camp badly
25designed is very different from saying that they
26deliberately created epidemic conditions?
1A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But you just maintained, Mr Irving, that they knew all
2about epidemics and they had institutes devoted to them
3and so on. It is rather puzzling that in that case it
4should be a mere oversight when they are building these
5institutions.
6Q. [Mr Irving] So you agree that there were major epidemics in
7Bergen-Belsen and Buchenwald at the end of the war?
8A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
9Q. [Mr Irving] Were these deliberately created, is that your contention?
10A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The conditions there were deliberately created by the
11Nazis, of course. In other words, had they wanted to
12prevent them, they could have done so.
13Q. [Mr Irving] But they just let the epidemics run, did they?
14A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. As I have said, they then made attempts (which I have
15just described) to try to limit the epidemics. You can
16compare this, if you like, with prisoners of war camps for
17British airmen and troops in which hygienic conditions
18were a good deal better.
19Q. [Mr Irving] Do you know how many people died in Dachau concentration
20camp in the first two months after World War II from
21epidemics?
22A. [Professor Richard John Evans] A substantial number.
23Q. [Mr Irving] Was it of the order of 20,000 prisoners?
24A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I will take your word for it.
25Q. [Mr Irving] Under American control, with the Americans deliberately
26spreading epidemics too?
1A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, Mr Irving. They were dealing with the consequences.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, this is all getting a little
3absurd. This all started out because you wrote or said
4that, "We", that is to say the Allies, "have deliberately
5created the epidemics" and maybe I have rather contributed
6to this by asking Professor Evans whether he thought that
7was a sensible view for an historian to take. We now seem
8to have gone the full circle, as it were. Anyway, I think
9we have probably exhausted the topic.
10MR IRVING: I do not think I put it exactly they way your
11Lordship says. I say we deliberately created the
12conditions of chaos through our bombing campaign,
13Operation Point Blank and Eclipse and so on.
14A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, may I quote to you, Mr Irving: "We had deliberately
15quote created the epidemics and the outbreaks of typhus
16and other diseases which led to those appalling scenes
17that were found at their most dramatic in the enclosed
18areas, the concentration camps" -- a lecture you gave in
191986.
20MR IRVING: Oh, a speech?
21A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
22Q. [Mr Irving] A lecture? I thought it was from a book.
23A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I presume you accept responsibility for saying that,
24Mr Irving ----
25Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, that is ----
26A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- whether you said it or wrote it.
1Q. [Mr Irving] --- from a transcript of a speech made by somebody, is
2that right?
3A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is a video -- an audio cassette of a speech.
4Q. [Mr Irving] Have you not just read out a speech two or three minutes
5ago which was quite clearly vulgarized, the text?
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: We can, if necessary, look at that speech if
7you think that the context makes any difference, but
8I think probably, Mr Irving, we can break off your
9cross-examination now.
10MR IRVING: That would be a useful point to break off at this
11point, my Lord.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I make an enquiry of you which is really
13to ask, and I expect Professor Evans would like to know
14the answer, what your estimate is as to the future of your
15cross-examination?
16MR IRVING: Two and a half more days.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: How many?
18MR IRVING: Two and a half more days.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Are you going to follow the ----
20MR IRVING: I am going to follow the ----
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- structure of his report?
22MR IRVING: I think it is the only way to do it, my Lord.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think I agree with that. I think you
24are right. To the extent that there are matters raised in
25Professor Evans' report that are not any longer, I think,
26relied on as part of the Defendants' case, then you can
1probably not trouble with them or, at any rate, take them
2very shortly if you want to.
3MR IRVING: Yes. Has your Lordship in your Lordship's memory
4which particular matters those are that are no longer
5relied on? Sikorsky is one, I believe?
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sikorsky is certainly one. Hitler's
7adjutants, I think, has rather come back in again.
8I mean, I think it is probably not sensible for me to try
9to identify them now because I do not really have them in
10mind, but if the Defendants let you know whether there are
11parts in your report that are no longer relied on, that
12might simplify things all round.
13MR IRVING: What about Moscow? Is there anything about Moscow
14in this report?
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think there is.
16MR RAMPTON: Not about Moscow. I have done that anyway.
17Moscow is certainly a live issue. There is nothing about
18Moscow in this report, as far as I know.
19MR IRVING: My Lord, are you going to permit a further
20cross-examination of me?
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we have always contemplated there
22would be a further cross-examination, but it is not
23open-ended. It is dealing with left over topics.
24MR RAMPTON: Can I tell your Lordship what I have left? I have
25got the Fleming book which has a reference to the Muller
26message to the Einsatzgruppen on 1st August 1941. I have
1got Kinner Zamos report of 16th December 1942. I have got
2Anne Frank. I have got the criminal statistics which is
3dealt with towards the end of Professor Evans' report,
4pages 692 to 8, and I have got a couple of other things
5which I am just having checked at the moment. If
6necessary, I will give notice and, of course, I have the
7political associations as well.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. That is very helpful, but if you are
9able to tell, or Miss Rogers or somebody is able to tell,
10Mr Irving that there are parts of Professor Evans' report
11which are no longer really relied on and, therefore, he
12need not trouble with them?
13MR RAMPTON: I think it means we can regard the Adjutants and
14the Roman Jews as out of the ring.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: There may be other bits?
16MR RAMPTON: Little bits, but those are the two main subjects,
17yes.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does that help, Mr Irving, a bit?
19MR RAMPTON: Though I cannot guarantee it will not ----
20MR IRVING: If I had known we could have torn up the first 120
21pages of his report, it would have saved a lot of time.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure that I would put it quite like
23that.
24(The court adjourned until the following day)
25
26
1camp?
2A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I did not say they created the epidemic. I said that they
3created the conditions. I mean, they knew full well what
4would ----
5Q. [Mr Irving] They deliberately created epidemic conditions?
6A. [Professor Richard John Evans] They full knew what would happen in those filthy
7conditions which they ----
8Q. [Mr Irving] They negligently created epidemic conditions?
9A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I do not think it was a matter of oversight on their part,
10Mr Irving.
11Q. [Mr Irving] Have you read Professor van Pelt's book on Auschwitz in
12which he describes in great detail the negligence of the
13designers in this respect?
14A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I have to admit I have not, no.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: In what respect in the design of?
16MR IRVING: The layout of the camp. They said it was inviting
17epidemics, the way it was designed. The prisoners had to
18march long distances in order to get to hygiene
19facilities, and so on.
20A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That would seem to confirm my point of view.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is rather what I thought, yes. I mean,
22does that not rather suggest that they were not too
23concerned about epidemics breaking out?
24MR IRVING: Through negligence they have the camp badly
25designed is very different from saying that they
26deliberately created epidemic conditions?
. P-212
1A. [Professor Richard John Evans] But you just maintained, Mr Irving, that they knew all
2about epidemics and they had institutes devoted to them
3and so on. It is rather puzzling that in that case it
4should be a mere oversight when they are building these
5institutions.
6Q. [Mr Irving] So you agree that there were major epidemics in
7Bergen-Belsen and Buchenwald at the end of the war?
8A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
9Q. [Mr Irving] Were these deliberately created, is that your contention?
10A. [Professor Richard John Evans] The conditions there were deliberately created by the
11Nazis, of course. In other words, had they wanted to
12prevent them, they could have done so.
13Q. [Mr Irving] But they just let the epidemics run, did they?
14A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No. As I have said, they then made attempts (which I have
15just described) to try to limit the epidemics. You can
16compare this, if you like, with prisoners of war camps for
17British airmen and troops in which hygienic conditions
18were a good deal better.
19Q. [Mr Irving] Do you know how many people died in Dachau concentration
20camp in the first two months after World War II from
21epidemics?
22A. [Professor Richard John Evans] A substantial number.
23Q. [Mr Irving] Was it of the order of 20,000 prisoners?
24A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I will take your word for it.
25Q. [Mr Irving] Under American control, with the Americans deliberately
26spreading epidemics too?
. P-213
1A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, Mr Irving. They were dealing with the consequences.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, this is all getting a little
3absurd. This all started out because you wrote or said
4that, "We", that is to say the Allies, "have deliberately
5created the epidemics" and maybe I have rather contributed
6to this by asking Professor Evans whether he thought that
7was a sensible view for an historian to take. We now seem
8to have gone the full circle, as it were. Anyway, I think
9we have probably exhausted the topic.
10MR IRVING: I do not think I put it exactly they way your
11Lordship says. I say we deliberately created the
12conditions of chaos through our bombing campaign,
13Operation Point Blank and Eclipse and so on.
14A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, may I quote to you, Mr Irving: "We had deliberately
15quote created the epidemics and the outbreaks of typhus
16and other diseases which led to those appalling scenes
17that were found at their most dramatic in the enclosed
18areas, the concentration camps" -- a lecture you gave in
191986.
20MR IRVING: Oh, a speech?
21A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
22Q. [Mr Irving] A lecture? I thought it was from a book.
23A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Well, I presume you accept responsibility for saying that,
24Mr Irving ----
25Q. [Mr Irving] In other words, that is ----
26A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- whether you said it or wrote it.
. P-214
1Q. [Mr Irving] --- from a transcript of a speech made by somebody, is
2that right?
3A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is a video -- an audio cassette of a speech.
4Q. [Mr Irving] Have you not just read out a speech two or three minutes
5ago which was quite clearly vulgarized, the text?
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: We can, if necessary, look at that speech if
7you think that the context makes any difference, but
8I think probably, Mr Irving, we can break off your
9cross-examination now.
10MR IRVING: That would be a useful point to break off at this
11point, my Lord.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I make an enquiry of you which is really
13to ask, and I expect Professor Evans would like to know
14the answer, what your estimate is as to the future of your
15cross-examination?
16MR IRVING: Two and a half more days.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: How many?
18MR IRVING: Two and a half more days.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Are you going to follow the ----
20MR IRVING: I am going to follow the ----
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- structure of his report?
22MR IRVING: I think it is the only way to do it, my Lord.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think I agree with that. I think you
24are right. To the extent that there are matters raised in
25Professor Evans' report that are not any longer, I think,
26relied on as part of the Defendants' case, then you can
. P-215
1probably not trouble with them or, at any rate, take them
2very shortly if you want to.
3MR IRVING: Yes. Has your Lordship in your Lordship's memory
4which particular matters those are that are no longer
5relied on? Sikorsky is one, I believe?
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sikorsky is certainly one. Hitler's
7adjutants, I think, has rather come back in again.
8I mean, I think it is probably not sensible for me to try
9to identify them now because I do not really have them in
10mind, but if the Defendants let you know whether there are
11parts in your report that are no longer relied on, that
12might simplify things all round.
13MR IRVING: What about Moscow? Is there anything about Moscow
14in this report?
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think there is.
16MR RAMPTON: Not about Moscow. I have done that anyway.
17Moscow is certainly a live issue. There is nothing about
18Moscow in this report, as far as I know.
19MR IRVING: My Lord, are you going to permit a further
20cross-examination of me?
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we have always contemplated there
22would be a further cross-examination, but it is not
23open-ended. It is dealing with left over topics.
24MR RAMPTON: Can I tell your Lordship what I have left? I have
25got the Fleming book which has a reference to the Muller
26message to the Einsatzgruppen on 1st August 1941. I have
. P-216
1got Kinner Zamos report of 16th December 1942. I have got
2Anne Frank. I have got the criminal statistics which is
3dealt with towards the end of Professor Evans' report,
4pages 692 to 8, and I have got a couple of other things
5which I am just having checked at the moment. If
6necessary, I will give notice and, of course, I have the
7political associations as well.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. That is very helpful, but if you are
9able to tell, or Miss Rogers or somebody is able to tell,
10Mr Irving that there are parts of Professor Evans' report
11which are no longer really relied on and, therefore, he
12need not trouble with them?
13MR RAMPTON: I think it means we can regard the Adjutants and
14the Roman Jews as out of the ring.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: There may be other bits?
16MR RAMPTON: Little bits, but those are the two main subjects,
17yes.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does that help, Mr Irving, a bit?
19MR RAMPTON: Though I cannot guarantee it will not ----
20MR IRVING: If I had known we could have torn up the first 120
21pages of his report, it would have saved a lot of time.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure that I would put it quite like
23that.
24(The court adjourned until the following day)
25
26
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