Irving v. Lipstadt

 1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
 2Royal Courts of Justice
 3Strand, London
 4Tuesday, 15th February 2000
 5
 6Before:
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY
 8
 9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
10Claimant -and-
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
13Defendants
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
20
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
24
25PROCEEDINGS - DAY TWENTY
26

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 1<Day 20 Tuesday, 15th February 2000.
 2< Professor Evans, recalled.
 3< Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.
 4MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Mr Irving?
 5MR IRVING:    May it please the court. I have placed in your
 6Lordship's bundle F a continuation of about 20 or 30
 7pages, and I have also provided your Lordship, as you have
 8just noticed, with a copy of Nuremberg to which we were
 9referring to yesterday.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes, I see that. Thank you.
11MR IRVING:    And if we can just take up one or two of the points
12your Lordship requested yesterday? Your Lordship
13requested a copy of what the pull-down menu says. That is
14in the bundle which I have just given you, bundle F. It
15is at the back of bundle F which your Lordship was using
16yesterday.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY:    The pull-down menu, where do I find that?
18MR IRVING:    If you go to page 93 of bundle F, my Lord, it
19should be -- unless the numbering has gone wrong.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I had this in a different form yesterday, did
21I not, from Mr Rampton?
22MR IRVING:    Well, I did not have it yesterday from Mr Rampton.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Did you not? Well, I got something.
24MR IRVING:    It is difficult to obtain, but that is the works of
25it, in what is called HTML.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Having looked through it, whilst we are on

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 1this, it did appear to me that whatever their titles may
 2be, they are mostly Jewish organisations of one kind or
 3another.
 4MR IRVING:    My Lord, that is not correct. If you look at the
 5list, there are 16 items, of which seven are not, if I can
 6put it like that.
 7MR RAMPTON:    I do not think we have 16.
 8MR IRVING:    That is precisely why your Lordship should be
 9looking at my pull-down menu rather than the one given to
10you. Shall I read through them?
11MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I do not think that would serve any
12particularly useful purpose.
13MR IRVING:    No. But your Lordship will notice the Australian
14Government, the Centre for Democratic Renewal, the
15Coalition for Human Dignity, the German Government.
16MR RAMPTON:    There are only two I think that are not Jewish, my
17Lord.
18MR IRVING:    Searchlight ----
19MR RAMPTON:    Two National Governments.
20MR IRVING:    Well, Mr Rampton, if you would just allow me to
21finish reading out those that are not Jewish that are on
22the list?
23MR JUSTICE GRAY:    You read out the ones you say are not Jewish.
24MR IRVING:    I will start again. Australian Government, Centre
25for Democratic Renewal.
26MR RAMPTON:    That is Jewish.

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 1MR IRVING:    I beg your pardon?
 2MR RAMPTON:    It is Jewish.
 3MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Let him read them, Mr Rampton, then we can
 4debate it further, if needs be.
 5MR IRVING:    Coalition for Human Dignity, the German Government,
 6Searchlight, and Surf Watch Internet Censorship.
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes.
 8MR IRVING:    Each of those, if you would click on that, you
 9would come to a subindex, my Lord, which has the actual
10documents which qualified for inclusion in the list of
11enemies of free speech.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes. I think this is in a way dicing with
13words because I have actually got the indices supplied
14yesterday. It appears to me, without knowing in detail
15what the individual items on the indices are, that really
16all of these organizations, there is a great deal of
17interplay, put it like that, between these organizations
18and what you would, perhaps, describe as the Jewish
19lobby. Is that not fair?
20MR IRVING:    In some of the documents quite clearly there is, in
21some of the documents listed on the index, and, obviously,
22I then have to make the point that this is a website which
23has been set up in response to the attack on me.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes, I follow.
25MR IRVING:    So, clearly, this is not a global attempt to
26address all the world enemies of free speech when,

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 1undoubtedly, you bring in the Chinese Government and all
 2sorts of other ghastly organizations, but these are the
 3bodies that have impinged on my professional career. That
 4is why they figure on my personal list of traditional
 5enemies of free speech.
 6MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I follow that. I think I interrupted
 7Mr Rampton. Did you want to add anything?
 8MR RAMPTON:    I was just going to say, Mr Irving has identified
 9as being not Jewish I think four that, in fact, are
10Jewish. The only two that are not that we can tell are
11the Australian and the German governments.
12MR IRVING:    Perhaps you should say which of the four that you
13consider are Jewish.
14MR RAMPTON:    All the rest are Jewish.
15MR IRVING:    Centre for Democratic Renewal?
16MR RAMPTON:    Yes.
17MR IRVING:    A Jewish body?
18MR RAMPTON:    Yes -- so I am told.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY:    We may or may not come back to that at some
20later stage. Let us leave it for the moment. I cannot
21actually find my bundle F.
22MR IRVING:    I asked your clerk, my Lord, this morning to put
23the fresh documents into it.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I then think I said not for the time being
25until I know that is what everybody thinks is right.
26MR IRVING:    Your Lordship will need bundle F9, in fact.

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