Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 21: Electronic Edition
Pages 196 - 201 of 201
| << 1-6 | < 190-195 |
But do you agree that this message, the November 15th
1directives whatsoever on what to do with the Jews which
2would cover killing them, in effect?
3A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He cannot find any in the brown file, no.
4Q. [Mr Irving] So this is quite an important episode, is it not, November
51941, December 1941, as far as the Baltic States are
6concerned, which highlights the fact that there were no
7directives from above at that time. The killings had
8begun, evidently on the initiative of the local people, on
9a huge scale. When Hitler's headquarters learned about it
10or when Himmler at Hitler's headquarters learned about it,
11he issued immediate orders stopping it and reprimanding
12the one who was doing it?
13A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, because you are drawing a false link between these two
14documents. The order issued by Himmler and the rapping of
15Jackelm over the knuckles is concerned simply with the
16killing of transports of Jews from Berlin. As I have
17said, four days after his meeting with Jackelm in which he
18told him off for this, Jackelm, presumably with Himmler's
19full approval, killed all the rest of the Jews in the Riga
20ghetto. The killing of Jews in Eastern Europe, who were,
21as it were, already there, continued on a large scale. It
22was uninterrupted.
23Q. [Mr Irving] From this you can agree with us, can you not, that there
24was a distinction made in the Nazis' minds between the
25value of German Jews or European Jews and the native
26Russian Jews? It was open season on the Russian Jews,
1whereas at this time there was still no order, and in fact
2no permission for the German European Jews to be killed?
3A. [Professor Richard John Evans] At this point that does seem to be the case, yes.
4MR IRVING: My Lord, do you wish to ask any questions on those
5particular documents?
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. You do not any longer suggest I think,
7Mr Irving, that this is an instruction which applied to
8anything other than that particular transport, do you?
9MR IRVING: It very clearly laid down the ground rules, that
10transports like this of European or German Jews were not
11to be liquidated.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I had thought you accepted earlier on that
13you had misread the singular as being plural.
14MR IRVING: Clearly, if the liquidation of this transport of
15Jews was not to happen but did happen and the one who did
16it got hauled over the coals, then that massage held for
17any subsequent transports, and they did not need to keep
18on repeating the orders, the same as your Lordship does
19not have to keep telling me to be brief.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you agree with that?
21A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, the actual document says quite clearly that this
22particular transport of Jews from Berlin should not be
23killed, and that is all it said. It does not permit of
24the interpretation saying that no Jews at all are to be
25killed or that no Jews being transported at any time have
26to be killed.
1Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Do you take the view that it applies to all transports of
2German Jews?
3A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not that particular one, but it seems to me that one can
4read out the from consequence that transports of Jews from
5Berlin were not ----
6MR IRVING: Or from the Reich?
7A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- killed, from the Reich were not killed subsequently,
8that this was the policy for the following few months.
9That does not of course ----
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: But those were the guidelines laid down by
11Himmler?
12A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
13MR IRVING: In the absence of the guidelines lines in the brown
14file or in any other colour filed, this kind of emergency
15took place by code message?
16A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It would seem to be the case.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I sense you are about to move on
18to another topic. I have a fear I am going to have to
19say -- how long are you going to take on your next topic?
20MR IRVING: I will be one more document.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, fine, but I have rise early as I think
22I mentioned.
23MR IRVING: As you mentioned, my Lord, but I am anxious to make
24progress.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, so I am.
26MR IRVING: 6th July 1942. This is one paragraph.
1A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Sorry, where is this?
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is in your clip, is it?
3A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I have it.
4MR IRVING: The Reichforschungsrat was the government level,
5scientific co-ordination agency, is correct, the Reichs
6research agency or council?
7A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
8Q. [Mr Irving] Will you take it that this is the constituent assembly or
9the founding meeting of that particular body in July 1942
10over which Hermann Goring is presiding?
11A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is what it purports to be, yes.
12Q. [Mr Irving] And that the source at the foot at the page is Milch
13documents which are bound volumes of transcripts of these
14meetings which were originally in the British Air Ministry
15archives?
16A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
17Q. [Mr Irving] I am just going to draw your attention to the indented
18paragraph. They are talking about the persecution of
19Jewish scientists and the damage this is doing to the
20German war effort. Goring says, and I am going to
21translate this: "I put this to the Fuhrer himself now"?
22A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
23Q. [Mr Irving] "We have kept one more Jew in Vienna for two years and
24another one in the field of photography because they were,
25they had certain things that we needed and which we could,
26which would absolutely advance our cause at this time. It
1would be madness to say here 'he's got to go'. He might
2have been a great researcher, a fantastic brain, but he
3had a Jewish wife and so he cannot be at the technical
4university", and so on?
5A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
6Q. [Mr Irving] "The Fuhrer has in this case in the field of art right
7down to operetta level made exceptions in order to keep
8things as they are"?
9A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
10Q. [Mr Irving] "So, all the more is he likely to or will he agree to
11exceptions there and give permission where we are dealing
12with really big research projects or researchers"?
13A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, great researchers.
14Q. [Mr Irving] My question is quite simply, does this show one more
15example of Adolf Hitler intervening on whatever scale to
16prevent ugly things happening to Jews of a particular
17value, if I can put it like that?
18A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, it is a very small scale. He mentions I think we
19have got one Jew, we kept one Jew in Vienna and another in
20photography because they have things that we want. So it
21is on a very small scale. I do not think anybody has ever
22disputed that there were individual exceptions.
23Q. [Mr Irving] This invites one further question which will make sense of
24this clip at this point. Have you seen documents of this
25quality, in other words, direct, non-hearsay documents, in
26the other sense, Adolf Hitler saying: "Kill this
1researcher, get rid of him, he is a Jew. I don't want him
2around the place. Liquidate that train load of Jews", in
3other words, the exact opposite of these documents?
4A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Oh, I see, Hitler, as it were, commanding in writing the
5killing of individual Jews.
6Q. [Mr Irving] No, just documents of this quality with specific,
7explicit, unchallenged authenticity, documents of
8integrity, but just saying exactly the same kind of thing
9but with a minus sign instead of a plus sign, if I can put
10it like that?
11A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not in such a precise way referring to individuals, but of
12course there is a large quantity of evidence from the
13table talk of Goebbels' diaries and other places which
14attests to Hitler's murderous intentions and policies and
15views towards the Jews, his murderous anti-Semitism.
16Q. [Mr Irving] You will have noticed that I have left the table talk out
17of this particular clip because they can be taken one way
18or the other depending on frequently and how you translate
19them. So I thought we would just pick on specific
20documents and verbatim transcripts and intercept signals.
21 My Lord, I have come to the end of today's
22matter.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, thank you very much. 10.30 tomorrow.
24< (The witness stood down).
25(The court adjourned until the following day)
26
1directives whatsoever on what to do with the Jews which
2would cover killing them, in effect?
3A. [Professor Richard John Evans] He cannot find any in the brown file, no.
4Q. [Mr Irving] So this is quite an important episode, is it not, November
51941, December 1941, as far as the Baltic States are
6concerned, which highlights the fact that there were no
7directives from above at that time. The killings had
8begun, evidently on the initiative of the local people, on
9a huge scale. When Hitler's headquarters learned about it
10or when Himmler at Hitler's headquarters learned about it,
11he issued immediate orders stopping it and reprimanding
12the one who was doing it?
13A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, because you are drawing a false link between these two
14documents. The order issued by Himmler and the rapping of
15Jackelm over the knuckles is concerned simply with the
16killing of transports of Jews from Berlin. As I have
17said, four days after his meeting with Jackelm in which he
18told him off for this, Jackelm, presumably with Himmler's
19full approval, killed all the rest of the Jews in the Riga
20ghetto. The killing of Jews in Eastern Europe, who were,
21as it were, already there, continued on a large scale. It
22was uninterrupted.
23Q. [Mr Irving] From this you can agree with us, can you not, that there
24was a distinction made in the Nazis' minds between the
25value of German Jews or European Jews and the native
26Russian Jews? It was open season on the Russian Jews,
. P-196
1whereas at this time there was still no order, and in fact
2no permission for the German European Jews to be killed?
3A. [Professor Richard John Evans] At this point that does seem to be the case, yes.
4MR IRVING: My Lord, do you wish to ask any questions on those
5particular documents?
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. You do not any longer suggest I think,
7Mr Irving, that this is an instruction which applied to
8anything other than that particular transport, do you?
9MR IRVING: It very clearly laid down the ground rules, that
10transports like this of European or German Jews were not
11to be liquidated.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I had thought you accepted earlier on that
13you had misread the singular as being plural.
14MR IRVING: Clearly, if the liquidation of this transport of
15Jews was not to happen but did happen and the one who did
16it got hauled over the coals, then that massage held for
17any subsequent transports, and they did not need to keep
18on repeating the orders, the same as your Lordship does
19not have to keep telling me to be brief.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you agree with that?
21A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, the actual document says quite clearly that this
22particular transport of Jews from Berlin should not be
23killed, and that is all it said. It does not permit of
24the interpretation saying that no Jews at all are to be
25killed or that no Jews being transported at any time have
26to be killed.
. P-197
1Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Do you take the view that it applies to all transports of
2German Jews?
3A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not that particular one, but it seems to me that one can
4read out the from consequence that transports of Jews from
5Berlin were not ----
6MR IRVING: Or from the Reich?
7A. [Professor Richard John Evans] --- killed, from the Reich were not killed subsequently,
8that this was the policy for the following few months.
9That does not of course ----
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: But those were the guidelines laid down by
11Himmler?
12A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
13MR IRVING: In the absence of the guidelines lines in the brown
14file or in any other colour filed, this kind of emergency
15took place by code message?
16A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It would seem to be the case.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I sense you are about to move on
18to another topic. I have a fear I am going to have to
19say -- how long are you going to take on your next topic?
20MR IRVING: I will be one more document.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, fine, but I have rise early as I think
22I mentioned.
23MR IRVING: As you mentioned, my Lord, but I am anxious to make
24progress.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, so I am.
26MR IRVING: 6th July 1942. This is one paragraph.
. P-198
1A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Sorry, where is this?
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is in your clip, is it?
3A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, I have it.
4MR IRVING: The Reichforschungsrat was the government level,
5scientific co-ordination agency, is correct, the Reichs
6research agency or council?
7A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
8Q. [Mr Irving] Will you take it that this is the constituent assembly or
9the founding meeting of that particular body in July 1942
10over which Hermann Goring is presiding?
11A. [Professor Richard John Evans] That is what it purports to be, yes.
12Q. [Mr Irving] And that the source at the foot at the page is Milch
13documents which are bound volumes of transcripts of these
14meetings which were originally in the British Air Ministry
15archives?
16A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
17Q. [Mr Irving] I am just going to draw your attention to the indented
18paragraph. They are talking about the persecution of
19Jewish scientists and the damage this is doing to the
20German war effort. Goring says, and I am going to
21translate this: "I put this to the Fuhrer himself now"?
22A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
23Q. [Mr Irving] "We have kept one more Jew in Vienna for two years and
24another one in the field of photography because they were,
25they had certain things that we needed and which we could,
26which would absolutely advance our cause at this time. It
. P-199
1would be madness to say here 'he's got to go'. He might
2have been a great researcher, a fantastic brain, but he
3had a Jewish wife and so he cannot be at the technical
4university", and so on?
5A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
6Q. [Mr Irving] "The Fuhrer has in this case in the field of art right
7down to operetta level made exceptions in order to keep
8things as they are"?
9A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes.
10Q. [Mr Irving] "So, all the more is he likely to or will he agree to
11exceptions there and give permission where we are dealing
12with really big research projects or researchers"?
13A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, great researchers.
14Q. [Mr Irving] My question is quite simply, does this show one more
15example of Adolf Hitler intervening on whatever scale to
16prevent ugly things happening to Jews of a particular
17value, if I can put it like that?
18A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, it is a very small scale. He mentions I think we
19have got one Jew, we kept one Jew in Vienna and another in
20photography because they have things that we want. So it
21is on a very small scale. I do not think anybody has ever
22disputed that there were individual exceptions.
23Q. [Mr Irving] This invites one further question which will make sense of
24this clip at this point. Have you seen documents of this
25quality, in other words, direct, non-hearsay documents, in
26the other sense, Adolf Hitler saying: "Kill this
. P-200
1researcher, get rid of him, he is a Jew. I don't want him
2around the place. Liquidate that train load of Jews", in
3other words, the exact opposite of these documents?
4A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Oh, I see, Hitler, as it were, commanding in writing the
5killing of individual Jews.
6Q. [Mr Irving] No, just documents of this quality with specific,
7explicit, unchallenged authenticity, documents of
8integrity, but just saying exactly the same kind of thing
9but with a minus sign instead of a plus sign, if I can put
10it like that?
11A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Not in such a precise way referring to individuals, but of
12course there is a large quantity of evidence from the
13table talk of Goebbels' diaries and other places which
14attests to Hitler's murderous intentions and policies and
15views towards the Jews, his murderous anti-Semitism.
16Q. [Mr Irving] You will have noticed that I have left the table talk out
17of this particular clip because they can be taken one way
18or the other depending on frequently and how you translate
19them. So I thought we would just pick on specific
20documents and verbatim transcripts and intercept signals.
21 My Lord, I have come to the end of today's
22matter.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, thank you very much. 10.30 tomorrow.
24< (The witness stood down).
25(The court adjourned until the following day)
26
. P-201
| << 1-6 | < 190-195 |