Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 22: Electronic Edition
Pages 202 - 207 of 207
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Yes. So he is, in other words, using a euphemism in the
1explicit in his own notes.
2Q. [Mr Irving] How would you translate "abshafen?
3A. [Professor Richard John Evans] " Abolish.
4Q. [Mr Irving] To dismiss, to abolish and to remove, is that right?
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you accepted earlier on that did mean
6liquidate, Mr Irving.
7MR IRVING: No, my Lord, not necessarily.
8MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving's translation is no more helpful, except
9of course than perhaps "abolish". He accepted, it is
10somewhere in one of his books, the translation "dispose
11of".
12MR IRVING: Yes.
13MR RAMPTON: I do not know about in German, but in English it
14is difficult to apply that to people, unless it has an
15entirely sinister sense.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that may be what I had in mind.
17MR IRVING: If we then go to the next document, the third
18document in this series which is dated just December 1942,
19you agree that here Himmler is contacting Muller and
20saying there is going to be a special camp set up to house
21valuable Jews from France and other nationalities, is that
22right?
23A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, this is a scheme, is an order by Himmler that
24Hungarian, Romanian and French Jews stay together, all
25those who have influential relations in America should be
26put in a special camp, and he sees a number of about
110,000 for this special camp of the wealthy Jews from
2these three countries who have influential relations in
3America. They have got to work there, but he adds the
4unusual condition that they have to work under conditions
5which keep them alive and healthy.
6Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
7A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Good for him. So it is a rather different matter. Yes,
8that is what it says.
9Q. [Mr Irving] Because I am sure when we come to be questioned about the
10Kinna document we are going to find out that the Jews were
11regarded as being a less preservable species in camps,
12were they not? There was less importance attached to
13keeping them alive?
14A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, this is a very special category of a rather small
15minority. One would guess maybe that this document came
16before the outbreak of war with America. It is difficult
17it say, but this is the hostage idea again I think.
18Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, this document is December 1942, is it not?
19A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. There is no day though on it.
20Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
21A. [Professor Richard John Evans] There is no day. It is just the month, my Lord.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, bottom left.
23MR IRVING: My Lord, the only other document I am going to look
24at in the chain is October 1943.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Looking at the chain for what purpose, Mr
26Irving, can you remind me? It is so long since we started
1it I cannot remember.
2MR IRVING: The chain started off as the chain of documents
3showing Hitler acting in a benevolent manner, holding out
4his hand to protect categories of Jews.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought that was probably the answer.
6MR IRVING: But occasionally other documents I have put them
7into it out of straightforward fairness to Mr Rampton,
8because I thought that otherwise he will say: Well, what
9about this and what about that?
10MR RAMPTON: And he is still going to say that.
11A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me comment there, the second document about the
12special camp for wealthy Jews from three countries with
13relations in America, it does not actually involve Hitler
14at all. This is an idea of Himmler's.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, it rather suggests that the other
16Jews are not going to have such a happy fate.
17A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am afraid it does, my Lord, yes, particularly where he
18says they have to be kept in work camps under conditions
19that keep them alive and healthy, which suggests that is
20rather unusual.
21MR IRVING: Was this a time when there were major epidemics
22raging in the camps? In other words, this is not just
23simply saying that you have to take great care that no
24epidemic breaks out in this camp?
25A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is not just that. They are saying they are not to be
26worked to death and special care is to be taken that they
1do not die of epidemics, unlike the rest of them is the
2implication. This is a very special category of people we
3are talking about here, with rich relations, influential
4relations in America.
5MR IRVING: My Lord, all Mr Rampton has indicated he is not
6going to discuss the Roman Jews, because it is part of my
7chain I just want to spend the remaining five minutes
8looking at the two documents on that, if I may.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Because this is the case where you say Hitler
10intervened to save them?
11MR IRVING: As you will see, my Lord, yes, again under very
12similar circumstances.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
14A. [Professor Richard John Evans] My Lord, if we are going to discuss this we will have to
15discuss it at length, I fear. I understood we were going
16on to half past 4 today?
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just pause for a moment, Mr Irving.
18MR IRVING: I am shaking my head.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that. What have you managed to do
20about Monday?
21A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am able to come. I have made arrangements to come on
22Monday.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. I see why you say that, because the
24Roman Jews are quite complicated.
25MR IRVING: Shall we leave it until Monday then?
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am inclined to have a go.
1MR IRVING: Have a stab at it now and see if we can deal with
2it.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you rather put them to the back of your
4mind because they seem to have not really featured in the
5case?
6A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I thought we were not going to discuss these.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: The position is Mr Rampton has not relied on
8it, but that does not stop Mr Irving reintroducing that
9issue. If you say you need to bone up on it?
10A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I am happy to do it now.
11MR IRVING: I certainly rely on them.
12MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving does. He may be making a mistake there,
13because he does not know the reason why I decided not to.
14That is his privilege to put his foot in his mouth, if
15that is what is going to happen. I do not know. I do
16worry that it may take more than a quarter of an hour
17though, because it is quite complicated.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am quite keen to use up all the available
19time, because I am anxious to get Professor Evans out of
20the box on Monday.
21MR IRVING: I can promise definitely that I will do everything
22I can to have him out of the box. We now have reached
23October 1943 which is of course, as far as I am concerned,
24the watershed and Hitler's knowledge.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: True, but remember Mr Rampton may have some
26re-examination.
1MR IRVING: I will leave him more than enough time for that
2I am sure.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we be open about it, because I am quite
4happy to adjourn now if we are sure we will get Professor
5Evans out of the box.
6MR RAMPTON: I can speak only about my re-examination at the
7moment which consists of but two topics.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: So it may be an hour, an hour and a half?
9MR RAMPTON: Nothing like that. It may be half an hour, maybe
10three-quarters of an hour.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you reasonably confident?
12MR IRVING: Totally confident and, if not, then it is my own
13fault.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would not want to leave it on that basis.
15Then I think let us adjourn now.
16MR IRVING: I think we have broken through the barbed wired.
17We are right through the mine field now and we are out in
18the open desert and our guns are blazing.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I had forgotten about the Roman Jews as
20well. So we are not sitting tomorrow, but Monday at 10.30
21< (The witness stood down)
22(The Court adjourned until Monday, 21 February 2000).
23
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25
26
1explicit in his own notes.
2Q. [Mr Irving] How would you translate "abshafen?
3A. [Professor Richard John Evans] " Abolish.
4Q. [Mr Irving] To dismiss, to abolish and to remove, is that right?
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you accepted earlier on that did mean
6liquidate, Mr Irving.
7MR IRVING: No, my Lord, not necessarily.
8MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving's translation is no more helpful, except
9of course than perhaps "abolish". He accepted, it is
10somewhere in one of his books, the translation "dispose
11of".
12MR IRVING: Yes.
13MR RAMPTON: I do not know about in German, but in English it
14is difficult to apply that to people, unless it has an
15entirely sinister sense.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that may be what I had in mind.
17MR IRVING: If we then go to the next document, the third
18document in this series which is dated just December 1942,
19you agree that here Himmler is contacting Muller and
20saying there is going to be a special camp set up to house
21valuable Jews from France and other nationalities, is that
22right?
23A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, this is a scheme, is an order by Himmler that
24Hungarian, Romanian and French Jews stay together, all
25those who have influential relations in America should be
26put in a special camp, and he sees a number of about
. P-202
110,000 for this special camp of the wealthy Jews from
2these three countries who have influential relations in
3America. They have got to work there, but he adds the
4unusual condition that they have to work under conditions
5which keep them alive and healthy.
6Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
7A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Good for him. So it is a rather different matter. Yes,
8that is what it says.
9Q. [Mr Irving] Because I am sure when we come to be questioned about the
10Kinna document we are going to find out that the Jews were
11regarded as being a less preservable species in camps,
12were they not? There was less importance attached to
13keeping them alive?
14A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes, this is a very special category of a rather small
15minority. One would guess maybe that this document came
16before the outbreak of war with America. It is difficult
17it say, but this is the hostage idea again I think.
18Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, this document is December 1942, is it not?
19A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Yes. There is no day though on it.
20Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
21A. [Professor Richard John Evans] There is no day. It is just the month, my Lord.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, bottom left.
23MR IRVING: My Lord, the only other document I am going to look
24at in the chain is October 1943.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Looking at the chain for what purpose, Mr
26Irving, can you remind me? It is so long since we started
. P-203
1it I cannot remember.
2MR IRVING: The chain started off as the chain of documents
3showing Hitler acting in a benevolent manner, holding out
4his hand to protect categories of Jews.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought that was probably the answer.
6MR IRVING: But occasionally other documents I have put them
7into it out of straightforward fairness to Mr Rampton,
8because I thought that otherwise he will say: Well, what
9about this and what about that?
10MR RAMPTON: And he is still going to say that.
11A. [Professor Richard John Evans] Let me comment there, the second document about the
12special camp for wealthy Jews from three countries with
13relations in America, it does not actually involve Hitler
14at all. This is an idea of Himmler's.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, it rather suggests that the other
16Jews are not going to have such a happy fate.
17A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am afraid it does, my Lord, yes, particularly where he
18says they have to be kept in work camps under conditions
19that keep them alive and healthy, which suggests that is
20rather unusual.
21MR IRVING: Was this a time when there were major epidemics
22raging in the camps? In other words, this is not just
23simply saying that you have to take great care that no
24epidemic breaks out in this camp?
25A. [Professor Richard John Evans] It is not just that. They are saying they are not to be
26worked to death and special care is to be taken that they
. P-204
1do not die of epidemics, unlike the rest of them is the
2implication. This is a very special category of people we
3are talking about here, with rich relations, influential
4relations in America.
5MR IRVING: My Lord, all Mr Rampton has indicated he is not
6going to discuss the Roman Jews, because it is part of my
7chain I just want to spend the remaining five minutes
8looking at the two documents on that, if I may.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Because this is the case where you say Hitler
10intervened to save them?
11MR IRVING: As you will see, my Lord, yes, again under very
12similar circumstances.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
14A. [Professor Richard John Evans] My Lord, if we are going to discuss this we will have to
15discuss it at length, I fear. I understood we were going
16on to half past 4 today?
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just pause for a moment, Mr Irving.
18MR IRVING: I am shaking my head.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that. What have you managed to do
20about Monday?
21A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I am able to come. I have made arrangements to come on
22Monday.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see. I see why you say that, because the
24Roman Jews are quite complicated.
25MR IRVING: Shall we leave it until Monday then?
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am inclined to have a go.
. P-205
1MR IRVING: Have a stab at it now and see if we can deal with
2it.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you rather put them to the back of your
4mind because they seem to have not really featured in the
5case?
6A. [Professor Richard John Evans] I thought we were not going to discuss these.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: The position is Mr Rampton has not relied on
8it, but that does not stop Mr Irving reintroducing that
9issue. If you say you need to bone up on it?
10A. [Professor Richard John Evans] No, I am happy to do it now.
11MR IRVING: I certainly rely on them.
12MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving does. He may be making a mistake there,
13because he does not know the reason why I decided not to.
14That is his privilege to put his foot in his mouth, if
15that is what is going to happen. I do not know. I do
16worry that it may take more than a quarter of an hour
17though, because it is quite complicated.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am quite keen to use up all the available
19time, because I am anxious to get Professor Evans out of
20the box on Monday.
21MR IRVING: I can promise definitely that I will do everything
22I can to have him out of the box. We now have reached
23October 1943 which is of course, as far as I am concerned,
24the watershed and Hitler's knowledge.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: True, but remember Mr Rampton may have some
26re-examination.
. P-206
1MR IRVING: I will leave him more than enough time for that
2I am sure.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we be open about it, because I am quite
4happy to adjourn now if we are sure we will get Professor
5Evans out of the box.
6MR RAMPTON: I can speak only about my re-examination at the
7moment which consists of but two topics.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: So it may be an hour, an hour and a half?
9MR RAMPTON: Nothing like that. It may be half an hour, maybe
10three-quarters of an hour.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you reasonably confident?
12MR IRVING: Totally confident and, if not, then it is my own
13fault.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would not want to leave it on that basis.
15Then I think let us adjourn now.
16MR IRVING: I think we have broken through the barbed wired.
17We are right through the mine field now and we are out in
18the open desert and our guns are blazing.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I had forgotten about the Roman Jews as
20well. So we are not sitting tomorrow, but Monday at 10.30
21< (The witness stood down)
22(The Court adjourned until Monday, 21 February 2000).
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