Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 24: Electronic Edition
Pages 187 - 192 of 192
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I have now reached effectively my planning for the
1the second report tomorrow, and then I shall be finished
2with Dr Longerich tomorrow, if I may.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, you are really saying you would rather
4break off now?
5MR IRVING: Quite simply because we did zip through the
6glossary. I think it does fall naturally in two stages.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure about that, but if you say you
8would like to break off now then I am perfectly happy with
9that. Can we just see where we are going from here.
10Mr Rampton, are we expecting to have any other witness on
11Thursday? I suppose that depends on Mr Irving.
12MR RAMPTON: No. I can start re-cross-examination Mr Irving on
13Thursday, if we go short with Dr Longerich. If not I will
14do that on Monday. I am expecting Professor Funke to be
15here on Tuesday.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you got a whole day's further
17cross-examination, do you think?
18MR RAMPTON: Probably.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not surprised.
20MR RAMPTON: Probably, because I have not done the political
21association. Considering the volume of material there is,
22I am going to keep it short, but it is still bound to take
23a bit of time.
24MR IRVING: My Lord, ought I to question this witness about the
25Schlegelberger document which he has not referred it in
26his report?
1MR JUSTICE GRAY: He has not, you are quite right, and
2I personally think there is absolutely no need, because if
3there is one topic that has been investigated exhaustively
4it is certainly that one.
5MR IRVING: I do not want to be criticised for not having done
6so.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will not criticise you and I do not think
8Mr Rampton will either.
9MR IRVING: Your Lordship is aware I attach great importance to
10it.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I realize you do.
12MR RAMPTON: I would point out, therefore, that it is likely
13that I will place reliance on what Dr Longerich has
14already said about that, which is that, in effect, he
15thinks it is a document of no historical significance.
16MR IRVING: Yes.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. The trouble is you cannot nibble at
18these issues. I hope Mr Irving will not take that as an
19invitation to open the whole issue.
20MR RAMPTON: No, but it is only fair that I should say that.
21I would use as corroboration for reliance on that what
22Professor Evans has said about it.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans?
24MR RAMPTON: Yes.
25MR IRVING: If Professor Evans wishes to have a chance to
26amplify the reason why he considers it to be insignificant
1or less significant than do I, then this would be the
2opportunity.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the answer to that is that he will
4not want to.
5MR RAMPTON: He is in Cambridge.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you meant Dr Longerich, did you not?
7MR IRVING: That was the correct inference, yes.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure he will not want to, but Mr Rampton
9is entitled to rely on his commentary about it. Since
10I know so clearly what the issues are each way on it,
11I really see very little benefit to be derived from going
12through all the points all over again.
13MR IRVING: I have no desire to.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you want to I am not stopping you.
15MR IRVING: But I thought it would only be fair in view of the
16fact that he did express that negative opinion on it, if
17he wished to have the opportunity to amplify on that that
18he should, but if he does not so ----
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just so it is clear, I am not for a moment
20stopping you from cross-examining fully on your reasons
21for saying why the Schlegelberger memorandum is a very
22important document, but I will not hold it against you
23that you did not cross-examine if you do not. I want to
24be absolutely clear what my position on that is.
25MR IRVING: If your Lordship will not then I shall not.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. I think that is a sensible outcome,
1because otherwise it is just a waste of time.
2MR RAMPTON: Can I give your Lordship two more references to
3close the day.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
5MR RAMPTON: Day 2, page 262, lines 11 to 17, I will read it
6out for Mr Irving's benefit so he knows exactly.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of what?
8MR RAMPTON: Of my cross-examination in the transcript.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Day 2?
10MR RAMPTON: Yes, page 262. Again I am afraid for some reason
11best known, perhaps it is that I merely lay the ground and
12all the bright questions seem to be asked by your
13Lordship. Maybe your Lordship has a better facility for
14getting straight answers, I do not know. Anyway, page
15262, line 11, Mr Justice Gray asks Mr Irving:
16 "Do you accept that means," this is about report
17No. 51, "since it is addressed to the Fuhrer that it was
18shown to him?"
19 Answer: "On a high probability, yes, my Lord.
20I would have accepted that as being evidence that it had
21probably been shown to Hitler, but I would also draw
22attention to one, two or three details, if I may, since we
23are looking at the document."
24 Then bottom of page 264, which is on the same
25physical sheet of paper, line 23, again your Lordship is
26asking the question:
1 "To be asked what you think this would have
2conveyed to Hitler, which is I think what Mr Rampton was
3asking?"
4 Answer: "Firstly, I accept the document was in
5all probability shown to Hitler. Secondly, I think in all
6probability he paid no attention to it, the reason being
7the date, the height of the Stalingrad crisis".
8 If there is going to be a retreat from that
9position, it is going to have to have, in submission,
10quite a good reason.
11MR IRVING: Well, my response is that I think documents are
12often shown to learned counsel which learned counsel
13sometimes pay no attention to. I think Mr Carmen is an
14example of that.
15MR RAMPTON: I am not Mr Carmen for one thing, and I shall not
16say what I feel about that.
17MR IRVING: Also your Lordship will remember ----
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let Mr Rampton tell us more about it.
19MR RAMPTON: For another thing, that is only to say that it
20seems that that concession, and I advisedly use that word,
21seems to remain in place.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Indeed it is fortified, because Mr Irving is
23there saying that, all right, it may have been shown to
24Hitler, but he paid no attention to it, well, that is
25almost the same as saying it was not shown to him. But he
26goes done in day 4 and 5 in the passages that you have
1referred to I think to accept that Hitler knew and
2approved.
3MR RAMPTON: Yes, knew about the systematic mass shootings in
4the East.
5MR IRVING: Your Lordship remember that I produced evidence to
6you a day or two later showing that on precisely that day
7or the day before one document of exactly the same nature
8was shown to Hitler on two successive days, submitted to
9him and obviously not read by him.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I suspect the position will emerge that
11you have slightly shifted your ground backwards and
12forwards in the course of your answers to Mr Rampton.
13MR IRVING: It is highly possible that one learns as one goes
14along, and one would be incorrigible if one did not.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will not comment about that, but you have
16now put your case actually in considerable detail to
17Dr Longerich and we have now had his answers.
18MR IRVING: Yes.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: So tell me what your final stance is, because
20I would like to know, but the evidence is all in now.
21MR RAMPTON: I would like to know too.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: So 10.30 tomorrow morning.
23< (The witness withdrew)
24(The court adjourned until the following day)
25
26
1the second report tomorrow, and then I shall be finished
2with Dr Longerich tomorrow, if I may.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, you are really saying you would rather
4break off now?
5MR IRVING: Quite simply because we did zip through the
6glossary. I think it does fall naturally in two stages.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure about that, but if you say you
8would like to break off now then I am perfectly happy with
9that. Can we just see where we are going from here.
10Mr Rampton, are we expecting to have any other witness on
11Thursday? I suppose that depends on Mr Irving.
12MR RAMPTON: No. I can start re-cross-examination Mr Irving on
13Thursday, if we go short with Dr Longerich. If not I will
14do that on Monday. I am expecting Professor Funke to be
15here on Tuesday.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have you got a whole day's further
17cross-examination, do you think?
18MR RAMPTON: Probably.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not surprised.
20MR RAMPTON: Probably, because I have not done the political
21association. Considering the volume of material there is,
22I am going to keep it short, but it is still bound to take
23a bit of time.
24MR IRVING: My Lord, ought I to question this witness about the
25Schlegelberger document which he has not referred it in
26his report?
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1MR JUSTICE GRAY: He has not, you are quite right, and
2I personally think there is absolutely no need, because if
3there is one topic that has been investigated exhaustively
4it is certainly that one.
5MR IRVING: I do not want to be criticised for not having done
6so.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will not criticise you and I do not think
8Mr Rampton will either.
9MR IRVING: Your Lordship is aware I attach great importance to
10it.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I realize you do.
12MR RAMPTON: I would point out, therefore, that it is likely
13that I will place reliance on what Dr Longerich has
14already said about that, which is that, in effect, he
15thinks it is a document of no historical significance.
16MR IRVING: Yes.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. The trouble is you cannot nibble at
18these issues. I hope Mr Irving will not take that as an
19invitation to open the whole issue.
20MR RAMPTON: No, but it is only fair that I should say that.
21I would use as corroboration for reliance on that what
22Professor Evans has said about it.
23MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans?
24MR RAMPTON: Yes.
25MR IRVING: If Professor Evans wishes to have a chance to
26amplify the reason why he considers it to be insignificant
. P-188
1or less significant than do I, then this would be the
2opportunity.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the answer to that is that he will
4not want to.
5MR RAMPTON: He is in Cambridge.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you meant Dr Longerich, did you not?
7MR IRVING: That was the correct inference, yes.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure he will not want to, but Mr Rampton
9is entitled to rely on his commentary about it. Since
10I know so clearly what the issues are each way on it,
11I really see very little benefit to be derived from going
12through all the points all over again.
13MR IRVING: I have no desire to.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you want to I am not stopping you.
15MR IRVING: But I thought it would only be fair in view of the
16fact that he did express that negative opinion on it, if
17he wished to have the opportunity to amplify on that that
18he should, but if he does not so ----
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just so it is clear, I am not for a moment
20stopping you from cross-examining fully on your reasons
21for saying why the Schlegelberger memorandum is a very
22important document, but I will not hold it against you
23that you did not cross-examine if you do not. I want to
24be absolutely clear what my position on that is.
25MR IRVING: If your Lordship will not then I shall not.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. I think that is a sensible outcome,
. P-189
1because otherwise it is just a waste of time.
2MR RAMPTON: Can I give your Lordship two more references to
3close the day.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
5MR RAMPTON: Day 2, page 262, lines 11 to 17, I will read it
6out for Mr Irving's benefit so he knows exactly.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of what?
8MR RAMPTON: Of my cross-examination in the transcript.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Day 2?
10MR RAMPTON: Yes, page 262. Again I am afraid for some reason
11best known, perhaps it is that I merely lay the ground and
12all the bright questions seem to be asked by your
13Lordship. Maybe your Lordship has a better facility for
14getting straight answers, I do not know. Anyway, page
15262, line 11, Mr Justice Gray asks Mr Irving:
16 "Do you accept that means," this is about report
17No. 51, "since it is addressed to the Fuhrer that it was
18shown to him?"
19 Answer: "On a high probability, yes, my Lord.
20I would have accepted that as being evidence that it had
21probably been shown to Hitler, but I would also draw
22attention to one, two or three details, if I may, since we
23are looking at the document."
24 Then bottom of page 264, which is on the same
25physical sheet of paper, line 23, again your Lordship is
26asking the question:
. P-190
1 "To be asked what you think this would have
2conveyed to Hitler, which is I think what Mr Rampton was
3asking?"
4 Answer: "Firstly, I accept the document was in
5all probability shown to Hitler. Secondly, I think in all
6probability he paid no attention to it, the reason being
7the date, the height of the Stalingrad crisis".
8 If there is going to be a retreat from that
9position, it is going to have to have, in submission,
10quite a good reason.
11MR IRVING: Well, my response is that I think documents are
12often shown to learned counsel which learned counsel
13sometimes pay no attention to. I think Mr Carmen is an
14example of that.
15MR RAMPTON: I am not Mr Carmen for one thing, and I shall not
16say what I feel about that.
17MR IRVING: Also your Lordship will remember ----
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let Mr Rampton tell us more about it.
19MR RAMPTON: For another thing, that is only to say that it
20seems that that concession, and I advisedly use that word,
21seems to remain in place.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Indeed it is fortified, because Mr Irving is
23there saying that, all right, it may have been shown to
24Hitler, but he paid no attention to it, well, that is
25almost the same as saying it was not shown to him. But he
26goes done in day 4 and 5 in the passages that you have
. P-191
1referred to I think to accept that Hitler knew and
2approved.
3MR RAMPTON: Yes, knew about the systematic mass shootings in
4the East.
5MR IRVING: Your Lordship remember that I produced evidence to
6you a day or two later showing that on precisely that day
7or the day before one document of exactly the same nature
8was shown to Hitler on two successive days, submitted to
9him and obviously not read by him.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I suspect the position will emerge that
11you have slightly shifted your ground backwards and
12forwards in the course of your answers to Mr Rampton.
13MR IRVING: It is highly possible that one learns as one goes
14along, and one would be incorrigible if one did not.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will not comment about that, but you have
16now put your case actually in considerable detail to
17Dr Longerich and we have now had his answers.
18MR IRVING: Yes.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: So tell me what your final stance is, because
20I would like to know, but the evidence is all in now.
21MR RAMPTON: I would like to know too.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: So 10.30 tomorrow morning.
23< (The witness withdrew)
24(The court adjourned until the following day)
25
26
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