Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 26: Electronic Edition
Pages 148 - 153 of 159
| << 1-6 | < 142-147 | 154-159 > | 153-159 >> |
Yes. I do not mean this in any literal sense, but
1are considerable, in the service of I can only say a
2restoration of a kind of Nazi anti-semitic ideology. That
3is I have always said the obvious motive for the lies
4which he tells when he writes history about Adolf Hitler,
5and that is the motive for his Holocaust denial. The
6whole thing hangs together. If we are allowed to pursue
7this line of defence, your Lordship will see it, what this
8is what happens when he goes to these gatherings, whether
9they are the United States or in Germany or in this
10country or whether ever it may be.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes,.
12MR RAMPTON: Then one sees the picture of the whole man;
13perhaps not the whole man, but three important parts of
14the man: What he thinks, who he speaks to and how he
15speaks, and then when he comes to his so-called history
16how he writes. The three strands together form a powerful
17picture of a man who is writing, falsifying history
18because he worships Adolf Hitler, Nazi doctrines and hates
19Jews and other people of different backgrounds.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am still of the view that what
21is written about those with whom you consort is defamatory
22or potentially defamatory. I am also of the view that
23what the Defendants are seeking to set up by way of
24justification of that defamatory meaning is something that
25is open to them. One of the reasons, which I have not
26asked you about and therefore I ought to put it to you
1now, is that it may well be that all this material, quite
2apart from being relevant to justify the words, is also
3relevant or may be relevant to explain how it comes about
4that these errors to which the Defendants point in your
5writings, how they can be explained. Do you follow me?
6It is the point I raised with Mr Rampton.
7MR IRVING: This is very similar to the idea that I omitted to
8present your Lordship in the original presentation of the
9submission, which is that another form of extremism which
10is illegal is of course extremism in the way of a foreign
11government, and this would be something similar, holding
12extreme views in being beholden to ----
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, in some ways that is another motive.
14MR IRVING: I appreciate that could be defamatory. I have no
15objection at all to them leading evidence on that or
16cross-examining on that kind of matter, but I think that
17the court should very properly rein in any kind of
18cross-examination that goes to guilt by association, and
19I am sure your Lordship would quite clearly be able to
20identify what any attempt of that is. If they can
21establish that I have had any kind of associations with
22any kind of neo-Nazis or Nazi subversists or
23revolutionaries or people of the kind that Mr Rampton was
24fantasizing about, then by all means let them try.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I think they are entitled to do is to
26call evidence to the effect that you have either
1associated with groups that are in themselves right-wing
2or in some way anti-Semitic or anti-Israel or involved
3with Holocaust denial, and that they are also entitled to
4put to you statements made by those who are intimately
5involved with organizations of that kind or indeed
6statements made at meetings when you were on the platform
7or even present.
8MR IRVING: My Lord, we are faced then with the problem of
9definition. They say Mr Irving addressed the Women's
10Institute of Los Angeles or something which we claim is an
11extremist neo-Nazi organization, how does your Lordship
12know? They are not going to put in the expert reports.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I listen to the evidence, is the answer, or
14look at the evidence.
15MR IRVING: Yes.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: And see what it amounts to.
17MR IRVING: But for them just to say that a Mr Webber Mr Smith
18or Mr Bloggs is an extremist and say "Mr Irving has met
19him, we can prove it, we have photographs of him standing
20to next to Mr Bloggs", this is going to be a problem is
21going to confront the court.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Maybe what we had better to do to cater for
23that concern, and I do understand it, we cannot have a
24completely wide, open-ended kind of discussion about all
25these organizations, unless the ground work is laid, is
26for me to invite Mr Rampton perhaps to take Mr Funke
1through some of the main organizations, IHR and maybe some
2of the others, to lay the foundation for saying that they
3are the sorts of organizations on which the Defendants
4should be entitled to rely.
5MR RAMPTON: That is what I had hoped your Lordship might allow
6me to do, because the tangle of interlocking personalities
7or personnel and organizations in Germany is a nightmare.
8Professor Funke is probably the only person in the world,
9apart from Mr Irving who knows his way round it, and what
10I had hoped was that I am going to try to show some film.
11I will have to did it in cross-examination first, I will
12point out some faces, and your Lordship will see exactly
13what I have been talking about. Then Professor Funke who
14will by then have instructed me, I will know who the faces
15belong to and, roughly speaking, what their political
16colour is. I can start off in that way. Then your
17Lordship will find at the back of Professor Funke's report
18a list of abbreviations which nobody should have to try to
19memorize, but much more useful a sort of dramatis
20personae, that is to say, a short biographical sketch of
21each of the main right-wing extremists with whom Mr Irving
22is associated in Germany. That is an extremely useful
23document.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
25MR RAMPTON: Herr Funke has also produced a short executive
26summary of his report, explaining the evolution and
1history of neo-Nazi right-wing extremism in Germany. As
2soon as I get back to the office I will release copies of
3that.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Mr Irving, there we are. That is the
5view I take on your submissions. What it comes to is we
6will look carefully at any organizations, and indeed any
7individuals statements, on which the Defendants are
8relying, but in principle, for the reasons I have given,
9it seems to me they are entitled to advance this as part
10of their plea of justification.
11MR IRVING: Yes.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: But we will look at it closely because it
13cannot get out of hand.
14MR IRVING: I am very anxious that it should not get out hand.
15It is liable to turn into a shooting gallery of the most
16random sort in which any numbers of names are dragged in
17and presented as being neo-Nazis who happen to have been
18in the same room as I or in the same continent or in the
19same county.
20MR RAMPTON: I would not dream of doing that. It would be a
21monstrous waste of the court's time, and anyway it would
22get me nowhere which is perhaps more important. It will
23consistent of showing Mr Irving's intimate relationships
24over periods of time with individuals, ranging from them
25turning up at his meetings, this kind of thing, him having
26dinner with them. It is nothing like finding two people
1in the same waiting room at a railway station. It really
2is not.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: There are two propositions, both have to be
4put together. One is an association.
5MR RAMPTON: Exactly.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which is a pure question of fact.
7MR RAMPTON: Then they have to prove who the person is.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then you have to prove the colour of their,
9whatever it is ----
10MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is exactly right.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- cut of their gib. It is not an easy
12area. I think rogues gallery, which is what this in a way
13comes to, is always difficult. We have to watch it.
14MR RAMPTON: Rogues' gallery I have always hated as an
15advocate. I have always found it difficult, and it is a
16question of fine judgment in each case. But this is not
17rogues gallery, if I can prove that Mr Irving is one of
18the rogues.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is always true of rogues gallery.
20MR IRVING: My Lord, in response of course, if I am going to be
21subjected to this kind of public flogging, then course
22I shall expect or hope for a greater degree of latitude in
23presenting my own bundle E when the time comes, because
24that is also a kind of rogues gallery of its own kind.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who are rogues?
26MR IRVING: The international endeavour to destroy me.
1are considerable, in the service of I can only say a
2restoration of a kind of Nazi anti-semitic ideology. That
3is I have always said the obvious motive for the lies
4which he tells when he writes history about Adolf Hitler,
5and that is the motive for his Holocaust denial. The
6whole thing hangs together. If we are allowed to pursue
7this line of defence, your Lordship will see it, what this
8is what happens when he goes to these gatherings, whether
9they are the United States or in Germany or in this
10country or whether ever it may be.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes,.
12MR RAMPTON: Then one sees the picture of the whole man;
13perhaps not the whole man, but three important parts of
14the man: What he thinks, who he speaks to and how he
15speaks, and then when he comes to his so-called history
16how he writes. The three strands together form a powerful
17picture of a man who is writing, falsifying history
18because he worships Adolf Hitler, Nazi doctrines and hates
19Jews and other people of different backgrounds.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am still of the view that what
21is written about those with whom you consort is defamatory
22or potentially defamatory. I am also of the view that
23what the Defendants are seeking to set up by way of
24justification of that defamatory meaning is something that
25is open to them. One of the reasons, which I have not
26asked you about and therefore I ought to put it to you
. P-148
1now, is that it may well be that all this material, quite
2apart from being relevant to justify the words, is also
3relevant or may be relevant to explain how it comes about
4that these errors to which the Defendants point in your
5writings, how they can be explained. Do you follow me?
6It is the point I raised with Mr Rampton.
7MR IRVING: This is very similar to the idea that I omitted to
8present your Lordship in the original presentation of the
9submission, which is that another form of extremism which
10is illegal is of course extremism in the way of a foreign
11government, and this would be something similar, holding
12extreme views in being beholden to ----
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, in some ways that is another motive.
14MR IRVING: I appreciate that could be defamatory. I have no
15objection at all to them leading evidence on that or
16cross-examining on that kind of matter, but I think that
17the court should very properly rein in any kind of
18cross-examination that goes to guilt by association, and
19I am sure your Lordship would quite clearly be able to
20identify what any attempt of that is. If they can
21establish that I have had any kind of associations with
22any kind of neo-Nazis or Nazi subversists or
23revolutionaries or people of the kind that Mr Rampton was
24fantasizing about, then by all means let them try.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: What I think they are entitled to do is to
26call evidence to the effect that you have either
. P-149
1associated with groups that are in themselves right-wing
2or in some way anti-Semitic or anti-Israel or involved
3with Holocaust denial, and that they are also entitled to
4put to you statements made by those who are intimately
5involved with organizations of that kind or indeed
6statements made at meetings when you were on the platform
7or even present.
8MR IRVING: My Lord, we are faced then with the problem of
9definition. They say Mr Irving addressed the Women's
10Institute of Los Angeles or something which we claim is an
11extremist neo-Nazi organization, how does your Lordship
12know? They are not going to put in the expert reports.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I listen to the evidence, is the answer, or
14look at the evidence.
15MR IRVING: Yes.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: And see what it amounts to.
17MR IRVING: But for them just to say that a Mr Webber Mr Smith
18or Mr Bloggs is an extremist and say "Mr Irving has met
19him, we can prove it, we have photographs of him standing
20to next to Mr Bloggs", this is going to be a problem is
21going to confront the court.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Maybe what we had better to do to cater for
23that concern, and I do understand it, we cannot have a
24completely wide, open-ended kind of discussion about all
25these organizations, unless the ground work is laid, is
26for me to invite Mr Rampton perhaps to take Mr Funke
. P-150
1through some of the main organizations, IHR and maybe some
2of the others, to lay the foundation for saying that they
3are the sorts of organizations on which the Defendants
4should be entitled to rely.
5MR RAMPTON: That is what I had hoped your Lordship might allow
6me to do, because the tangle of interlocking personalities
7or personnel and organizations in Germany is a nightmare.
8Professor Funke is probably the only person in the world,
9apart from Mr Irving who knows his way round it, and what
10I had hoped was that I am going to try to show some film.
11I will have to did it in cross-examination first, I will
12point out some faces, and your Lordship will see exactly
13what I have been talking about. Then Professor Funke who
14will by then have instructed me, I will know who the faces
15belong to and, roughly speaking, what their political
16colour is. I can start off in that way. Then your
17Lordship will find at the back of Professor Funke's report
18a list of abbreviations which nobody should have to try to
19memorize, but much more useful a sort of dramatis
20personae, that is to say, a short biographical sketch of
21each of the main right-wing extremists with whom Mr Irving
22is associated in Germany. That is an extremely useful
23document.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
25MR RAMPTON: Herr Funke has also produced a short executive
26summary of his report, explaining the evolution and
. P-151
1history of neo-Nazi right-wing extremism in Germany. As
2soon as I get back to the office I will release copies of
3that.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Mr Irving, there we are. That is the
5view I take on your submissions. What it comes to is we
6will look carefully at any organizations, and indeed any
7individuals statements, on which the Defendants are
8relying, but in principle, for the reasons I have given,
9it seems to me they are entitled to advance this as part
10of their plea of justification.
11MR IRVING: Yes.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: But we will look at it closely because it
13cannot get out of hand.
14MR IRVING: I am very anxious that it should not get out hand.
15It is liable to turn into a shooting gallery of the most
16random sort in which any numbers of names are dragged in
17and presented as being neo-Nazis who happen to have been
18in the same room as I or in the same continent or in the
19same county.
20MR RAMPTON: I would not dream of doing that. It would be a
21monstrous waste of the court's time, and anyway it would
22get me nowhere which is perhaps more important. It will
23consistent of showing Mr Irving's intimate relationships
24over periods of time with individuals, ranging from them
25turning up at his meetings, this kind of thing, him having
26dinner with them. It is nothing like finding two people
. P-152
1in the same waiting room at a railway station. It really
2is not.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: There are two propositions, both have to be
4put together. One is an association.
5MR RAMPTON: Exactly.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which is a pure question of fact.
7MR RAMPTON: Then they have to prove who the person is.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then you have to prove the colour of their,
9whatever it is ----
10MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is exactly right.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- cut of their gib. It is not an easy
12area. I think rogues gallery, which is what this in a way
13comes to, is always difficult. We have to watch it.
14MR RAMPTON: Rogues' gallery I have always hated as an
15advocate. I have always found it difficult, and it is a
16question of fine judgment in each case. But this is not
17rogues gallery, if I can prove that Mr Irving is one of
18the rogues.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is always true of rogues gallery.
20MR IRVING: My Lord, in response of course, if I am going to be
21subjected to this kind of public flogging, then course
22I shall expect or hope for a greater degree of latitude in
23presenting my own bundle E when the time comes, because
24that is also a kind of rogues gallery of its own kind.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who are rogues?
26MR IRVING: The international endeavour to destroy me.
. P-153
| << 1-6 | < 142-147 | 154-159 > | 153-159 >> |