Irving v. Lipstadt

 1MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes.
 2MR IRVING:    There are certain parallels there which I would
 3draw.
 4MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I do not think this can be approached on the
 5basis of tit for tat, as it were, but I hear what you
 6say. You would be entitled to say, Mr Irving, that you
 7wanted a formal ruling from me. I think as we have the
 8transcript, and as there are a great many other things for
 9all of us to do overnight, as it were, you are entitled to
10ask for it, do you want me to do a formal ruling?
11MR IRVING:    Not a formal ruling, my Lord, but I would like to
12know what the timetable is now for the next two or three
13days so that I can plan.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY:    That is a very good question.
15MR RAMPTON:    I am in your Lordship's hands. I am in
16Mr Irving's hands. I say with not with any pride or
17whatever, but I do say that we have made very good
18progress in this case. We are at least four, maybe five
19or six, weeks short of the estimate even now. We have
20nearly finished the evidence. I quite agree, those files
21actually landed on me on Friday too, and my heart sank
22too. I have in fact read them. They do contain a lot of
23material about Mr Irving's activities because they are
24taken from his diary and from his correspondence and so
25on.
26MR IRVING:    Selected from my diary.

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 1MR RAMPTON:    Yes, maybe. That is right. The human brain is
 2very good at selection. I would like him, if he needs it,
 3to have the time to read them before I cross-examine him
 4about them. I have got a residuum of cross-examination
 5about history still to do, loose ends. I am entirely in
 6your Lordship's hands.
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Is it Herr Funke, is it, or Dr Funke?
 8MR RAMPTON:    Dr Funke is here.
 9MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Presumably, the sensible thing then would be
10to take his evidence next.
11MR RAMPTON:    Before I cross-examine Mr Irving?
12MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Well, I am completely easy. It is just a
13waste of time, I would have thought, to have Dr Funke
14hanging about while you cross-examine.
15MR RAMPTON:    Well, they want me to cross-examine first.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Let us ask Mr Irving because your view
17counts.
18MR IRVING:    My Lord, I would like to cross-examine Dr Funke
19before my cross-examination. The simple reason is this
20may enable us to knock out a number of personalities or
21organizations which would probably be useful. If we
22establish the number of personalities or organizations are
23perfectly clean, and not criminal and are non-violent and
24non-revolutionary and not anti-Semitic and none of the
25things that Professor Lipstadt has said in her book, then,
26presumably, your Lordship would not be interested in my

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 1relationship with them.
 2MR JUSTICE GRAY:    That is a fair point. Mr Rampton, do you
 3want to ----
 4MR RAMPTON:    No, it is all right.
 5MR JUSTICE GRAY:    What Mr Irving has just said (and there is
 6something in it) is that if he manages one way or another
 7to knock out any of the organizations, basically,
 8I suppose in his own cross-examination of Dr Funke, Herr
 9Funke, then he does not need to face cross-examination
10from you on that particular topic?
11MR RAMPTON:    Well, it may be. On the other hand, from
12Professor Funke's point of view and certainly from mine,
13it is going to be a very great deal quicker, I mean, if
14Mr Irving is going to be able to knock out an
15organization, he can do it in answer to my questions.
16MR IRVING:    What I would prefer to do is to put to Dr Funke
17certain extracts from diaries pre-emptively, if I can put
18it like that, which shows that I have shown a proper
19respect and distaste for some of these people and that
20would be the time to do it.
21MR RAMPTON:    This is all the wrong way round. It is Mr Irving
22who is the Claimant in this case. I cannot say I have a
23right because nowadays those sorts of procedural rights no
24longer exist. But it is unsatisfactory that the Claimant
25in the case should, as it were, get first shot at the
26Defendants' experts.

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 1MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Well ----
 2MR RAMPTON:    It should not be that way around.
 3MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Save for this, this may be unfair and wrong
 4-- if so, tell me -- my impression was that you
 5deliberately reserved for a later stage of
 6cross-examination the whole issue of extremist
 7associates. Indeed, I think at one time you were not sure
 8you were going to necessarily want to cross-examine on
 9them.
10MR RAMPTON:    I think that is true. I have not deliberately
11reserved it. It just got left. I mean, it was going to
12be last in the queue anyway.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY:    All right. I think I am going to suggest
14that Herr Funke gives evidence before you resume your
15cross-examination of Mr Irving because I think that may
16have the effect to some extent of short circuiting things.
17MR RAMPTON:    If your Lordship says so. I do believe it will be
18quicker the other way round, but I am sure Professor Funke
19can deal with it, but if that is going to happen, then
20I, with your Lordship's permission, would want a little
21bit of time in chief with Dr Funke first.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I am sure that is sensible.
23MR RAMPTON:    Which I think would speed things up. So perhaps
24we can do that tomorrow or whenever, I do not know.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Do you want to, as it were, introduce him and
26make a start with him?

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 1MR RAMPTON:    What, now? Yes, well, no, I do not want to
 2because I have not got the kit together.
 3MR JUSTICE GRAY:    All right.
 4MR RAMPTON:    As I was expecting to cross-examine first, quite
 5honestly.
 6MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I understand why you do.
 7MR RAMPTON:    We need videos too which we have not got in
 8court.
 9MR JUSTICE GRAY:    We will have that first thing in the
10morning?
11MR RAMPTON:    We will have them first thing in the morning.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Can I ask for everybody's benefit what the
13likely duration of Dr Funke is going to be?
14MR RAMPTON:    As I am not having first shot at him, I am not
15saying ----
16MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Well, you will, first shot at Mr Irving, you
17mean? You are going to have first shot with Herr Funke.
18MR RAMPTON:    Yes, but only in chief. I will only be,
19I suppose, about an hour in chief.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes, that is what I assumed.
21MR IRVING:    I will take the rest of the day, that is all.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY:    The rest of the day and that is all?
23MR RAMPTON:    Then we can, subject to Mr Irving's having had
24time to read those files if he wants to, finish the
25evidence this week.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes. That is what I was rather hoping.

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 1Good.
 2MR JUSTICE GRAY:    In that case we will adjourn now and Herr
 3Funke tomorrow morning at 10.30.
 4(The court adjourned until the following day)
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