Irving v. Lipstadt

 1A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     3.3.11. Thank you.
 2Q. [Mr Irving]     3.3.11.
 3A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 4Q. [Mr Irving]     This is the event that led to my being put in the police
 5van. You describe it as an "illegal demonstration=". Why
 6do you call it an illegal demonstration?
 7A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It was ----
 8Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you any proof that it was illegal, that there were
 9any arrests made for it? Was anybody fined for conducting
10illegal demonstration? What I am asking you is why do you
11call the demonstration that I was seen in illegal? You
12have no proof, right?
13A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No.
14Q. [Mr Irving]     No. 3.3.12 ----
15A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I mean I can allude to that bit further. It was the
16intervention of the police, you could see. So there were
17some calls in the administration to say, "this goes too
18far", because of the whole thing, of the whole
19conference. It went out. It was not asked for by the
20police, institutions. So in that sense it was illegal.
21Excuse me that I had to wait a minute to realize what it
22was about.
23Q. [Mr Irving]     Let me just ask you one more question and this concerns
24the position of the police president in German life.
25Unlike England, the police president in Germany is a
26political appointment, is he not?

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 1A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It depends.
 2Q. [Mr Irving]     In each city?
 3A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, it depends. The police president is, as I alluded to
 4before, is a Staatsbeamter.
 5Q. [Mr Irving]     A Civil Servant?
 6A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Civil servant, and the civil servants, as I said, have to
 7stick to the laws and nothing else, whereas the
 8politicians can do their own cause, be it a mayor of a
 9city or so. So there is a different ruling and a
10different structure. Of course it happens that, this is
11in democracies like ours is the case, I do not know how it
12is in other countries, but, you know, they appoint a
13person of a given party or near to a given party and so
14forth. But once the position is established they have to
15shy away of these political affiliations and have to stick
16to the laws.
17Q. [Mr Irving]     He is appointed by the ----
18A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So it does not make a point if you say it is a politicized
19system, and so they are not, you know, whatever allowed to
20do this or that.
21Q. [Mr Irving]     But the city administration of Munich is socialist, is it
22not, it is left-wing?
23A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It depended. I mean ----
24Q. [Mr Irving]     At this material time.
25A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So as far as I recall, yes, but there was a time when
26there was a big debate, whatever.

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 1Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I think this might be a useful time to stop.
 2MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I wondered whether you did not want to get to
 3the end of paragraph 3, because that that all seems to me
 4to stick together, and then there is a rather new chapter
 5beginning at 4 or maybe you have not got any questions on
 6the remainder of paragraph 3.
 7MR IRVING:    Section 3.
 8MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Sorry, section 3 is a better word.
 9MR IRVING:    Yes, I have one page of questions. Page 3.3.12 or
10paragraph 3.3.12, you refer to a leaflet put out by Ewald
11Althans containing the phrase: "300 participants joined
12David Irving in spontaneous demonstration to the
13Feldherrenhalle after our event", which is a reference to
14that demonstration we saw on the video, is it not?
15A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right, no, it is -- yes, right.
16Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have any evidence that I was actually on the
17demonstration that went to Feldherrenhalle, apart from
18that leaflet issued by Althans?
19MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Are you saying that you did not, Mr Irving?
20MR IRVING:    I am saying I did not, yes, my Lord. In that case
21I will put to the witness the letter from Mrs Worch which
22is page 9. Can I ask you to look at page 9 in the
23documents, it is either page 9 or 10.
24A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, 9.
25Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this a letter from Ursula Worch and her husband
26Christian Worch written to my lawyer February 17th 1991?

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 1A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 2Q. [Mr Irving]     If I summarize it very quickly, the actual letter is two
 3pages later on page 11 probably in German. If you look at
 4the German version, if I summarize it quickly, she is
 5saying that after the end of the function in the
 6Lowenbraukeller there was a spontaneous public
 7demonstration: "We joined in that. We lost sight of Mr
 8Irving who remained in the hall", right, "before we could
 9make a firm appointment. About an hour later, shortly
10before the police broke up this demonstration, we met
11Mr Irving in the street where he had been looking for us",
12right? So the scene we saw on the video, would that be
13consistent with the crowd being ushered back to the hall
14by the police who then, for some reason, started making
15arrests?
16A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I mean the whole thing is inconsistent. On the one hand
17you have these letters of this couple, Worch, and of
18course it has the function for, you know, for the lawyer
19and so forth, and on the other hand you have the video and
20you have the Althans presentation you just quoted. So
21there is a lot of probability that this video is more
22correct than the letter.
23Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Funke, do you remember me asking you to look at
24the video and tell the court which way this little band of
25forlorn stragglers was moving, being ushered across the
26Viennastrasse and you could not tell?

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 1A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     All the evidence I have by Michael Schmidt, and especially
 2Michael Schmidt who was there at the time and in his book
 3and four days long, you know, whole videos of that, this
 4is a short version we saw, I would say that in my overall
 5cautious judgment I cannot say yes to your implication.
 6Q. [Mr Irving]     Since we are talking about this demonstration, I had
 7£2,000 worth of books on the book table at that function.
 8Would I have left them unattended with 800 people in the
 9hall in order to join a demonstration?
10A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You joined this going, and all the sources I had says,
11including Althans, that this was going to the
12Feldherrenhalle.
13Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you read my diary covering that particular episode?
14A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, I read.
15Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you read the police statements that were taken
16describing what had happened in the file which was made
17available by discovery?
18A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You know, I think I did it also in the report, I read this
19and I came to the conclusion that there are more reasons
20for the case I state that you joined for a given period of
21time this march.
22Q. [Mr Irving]     You think I would have just left £2,000 worth of books
23unattended on a book table in a beer hall with 800
24people?
25A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know. There are other possibilities to take care
26and maybe you did and you joined. I do not know.

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 1Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you remember the police statements that were made at
 2the time?
 3A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I read the things that are of interest all around this
 4case.
 5Q. [Mr Irving]     But my question was, do you remember the police statements
 6that were made covering this particular event, the
 7demonstration and the reason that I was taken in and so
 8on?
 9A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think I recall, but help me.
10Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Well, if you have not read them there is not much
11point in my putting it to you.
12A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think I had.
13Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you aware that Michael Schmidt who took the videos and
14on whom you rely is a paid police informer?
15A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No.
16Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, are you aware that this emerges from the police
17dossier which is in my files which were provided by way of
18discovery?
19A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Michael Schmidt was not a police informer.
20Q. [Mr Irving]     Where did the police obtain the video from on the basis of
21which they prosecuted me?
22A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     But I have no evidence that he sided police functions, no
23evidence whatsoever.
24Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read in the police dossier the words, "Michael
25Schmidt has come forward and volunteered to us a video
26which he took at the Lowenbrau meeting?

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