Irving v. Lipstadt

 1A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is a different, this a different, you know, what is
 2it, observation. That does not include that he is paid or
 3whatever integrated in this secret or police system.
 4Q. [Mr Irving]     You referred repeatedly in your report to that fact that
 5in the written agreements between myself and Dr Frey it
 6was stated in writing that I would not talk about the
 7Holocaust in any of my talks?
 8A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, Frey again and again reiterated that. He may have
 9had reasons. I do not know.
10Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Well, can you speculate on what the reason would be,
11possible reasons?
12A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You were there too. The one is not to be illegalized; the
13other is that you may depart from it.
14Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that the more likely reason is in the
15German climate, that even though neither of us intended,
16neither Dr Frey nor I, should speak about that subject, it
17would be alleged against us by malicious parties and we
18wanted it therefore to be set out in writing that that was
19not an agreed topic, and that this is the reason why it
20was fixed every time in writing between us?
21A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It seems ----
22Q. [Mr Irving]     So we could not be tricked.
23A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It seems the case.
24Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and using your own political nouse, your ability,
25your acumen, would you agree that this is probably the
26more likely conclusion on the basis of the correspondence

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 1as you have read it?
 2A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It does not defer from what I wrote or did I get it
 3wrong?
 4MR JUSTICE GRAY:    No, I think you are all agreed. It was a
 5precaution that he took to protect himself, his party and
 6indeed Mr Irving from being prosecuted.
 7MR IRVING:    It was a precaution we both took, my Lord. Can
 8I add another question as rider? Have you seen any
 9reference or indication of the fact that at any of the DVU
10meetings I departed from that agreement and that I spoke
11Holocaust denial?
12A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I mean there was the quarrel between Mr Frey and Mr Irving
13with respect to the other activities you took at that
14period of time, and that was also in relation to the, to
15quote, "Hitler and Jews" thing. So this made him
16concerned that you will lose the ability, that Mr Irving,
17so to speak, lose the ability to stay freely and to speak
18freely in Germany and he lost.
19Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but will you now please answer my question because it
20is important. Have you read any indication anywhere, in
21my diaries or on the speech notes or anything like that,
22that I spoke on Holocaust denial or the Holocaust or
23Auschwitz at any of the meetings that Dr Frey commissioned
24me to speak at?
25A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far as I recall not, no.
26Q. [Mr Irving]     And the same goes for anti-Semitism of course, that I did

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 1not go vapouring on against the Jews at any of these
 2meetings?
 3A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far as I see, not with respect to the DVU, but in other
 4circumstances very different.
 5Q. [Mr Irving]     We will take each one as we come to it. In paragraph
 63.4.1, and I am nearly at the end, you say that I was a
 7main speaker for the DVU?
 8A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 9Q. [Mr Irving]     Is not the correct way to say it in fact that I was
10speaker frequently hired by the DVU as an historian, that
11I never spoke for them? I was not a spokesman for them?
12A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You were a star speaker used by the political party for
13political aims.
14Q. [Mr Irving]     Why do you call me an agitator for the DVU in that same
15paragraph, an agitator?
16A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Because of that.
17Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you like to justify the last sentence beginning,
18"The DVU is itself a party that propagates hatred against
19foreigners, an-Semitism, revisionism, incites violence"?
20Is this not again an example of your loose writing, you
21just throw these things in there?
22A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not with respect to the DVU. As I stated it before, you
23did not do that. Is it is very interesting to describe
24this. The speaker, Irving, is cautious in sticking to the
25law as he can with respect to the DVU, but the DVU itself
26is taking him as a star speaker, and representing their

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 1cause or its cause as an anti-Semitic, right-wing
 2extremist, and often denialist, as you can see in the
 3newspapers and as are referred to by the articles thing.
 4So it is a kind of mutual interaction with often very
 5cautious tactic lines.
 6Q. [Mr Irving]     But, Professor Funke, each of those activities or
 7agitation factors that you list there, propagating hatred
 8against foreigners, anti-Semitism, inciting violence, each
 9of those would be an illegal activity if it was true. So
10why was the DVU never prosecuted, as you say it was not?
11MR JUSTICE GRAY:    You asked that before.
12MR IRVING:    Yes, my Lord, but I wanted to underlined the point,
13if the DVU is accused in that sentence of conducting these
14activities, it seems highly improbable given that they
15were never prosecuted.
16A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Again, Mr Irving took sides with this extremist party, and
17I can go into details of how intense anti-Semitic party
18members and the newspapers are. There is no doubt about
19that.
20Q. [Mr Irving]     But not in the extreme form.
21A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The other part of the answer is that that does not mean
22that this party is illegal, because of the special
23importance parties, as parties, were given by the
24constitutional law as a reaction to the period before, and
25that includes that the political party has a special ----
26THE INTERPRETER:    A right to participate.

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 1A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- stated by the constitutional law directly. So it is
 2very difficult to push aside parties when they not only
 3claim but by their structure are parties, although they
 4may not be in the internal structure democratic ones.
 5This is why at the beginning it was so extended to
 6describe the specifics of the German political system and
 7the right-wing extremist cause they have to fight.
 8MR IRVING:    I think it would be easier to deal with
 9personalities tomorrow, my Lord, because the organizations
10are clearly problem.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY:    So that I have some idea of the timing, how
12much cross-examination?
13MR IRVING:    I have one more day at this rate, less than a day.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY:    A day of cross-examination of Professor
15Funke?
16MR IRVING:    I think so, yes.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Your original estimate was half a day.
18MR IRVING:    I will abbreviate it then.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY:    No, do not do it because I say that.
20MR IRVING:    Your Lordship is excellent at brooming me along and
21making me scrap hours of work.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY:    It is a matter for you to take whatever
23course you think.
24MR IRVING:    If I know your Lordship is not going to pay
25attention to those matters ----
26MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have give you a very, very clear

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 1indication I hope of what I would be paying attention to.
 2MR IRVING:    Had I had that indication last night ----
 3MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I agree, but I did not know what you were
 4going to be asking about. 10.30 tomorrow.
 5< (The witness withdrew)
 6(The court adjourned until the following day)
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