Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition
Pages 199 - 204 of 204
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So to quote your reference to Dresden, the
1of Auschwitz.
2Q. [Mr Irving] Right, but now let me put it like this. If in a speech
3I make a number of references to the appalling horrors
4undoubtedly suffered by the victims of Auschwitz, and
5I have never made any attempt to minimize them and I
6have referred to the shootings in Russia, I have quoted
7the Bruns report, and, on the other hand, I then mock the
8eyewitnesses who have obviously lied for whatever reason
9and dreamed up these totally ludicrous stories about the
10one man portable gas chamber, is it not dishonest, in your
11view, for somebody to take just that passage out and put
12that as a representation of my entire speech?
13A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is, what you are doing is again and again. Look at the
1440 pages that was with the help of our assistant, Thomas
15Robins and Dunn, on the anti-Semitic or the rhetoric you
16did on this issue. So I recall just another quotation of
17you. So if it would be one time, we can cross over, but
18you did it again and again, and you just minutes ago
19referred that mass gassings did not happen. So if this,
20as long as this is the case, I cannot say yes to any of
21this kind of cynicism that you put to the public. Let me
22just recall this other quotation.
23Q. [Mr Irving] If it is relevant, please?
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is relevant to the question ----
25A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- but we do not want a lot of speeches?
1A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is very short. It is like that you say, OK, this kind
2of survivors of the Holocaust, and you put it up in the
3way that you can quote it as "assholes". This cannot be.
4If you honestly, if you seriously, are saying that you
5realize the trauma of those who went through, if they
6survived.
7MR IRVING: Can I now take you to the letter dated 30th January
81991 which has been introduced by Mr Rampton?
9A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
10Q. [Mr Irving] Firstly, the question of the date. I do not know whether
11Mr Rampton meant it seriously or not, but as he said it
12I have to comment on it, if the letter is dated 30th
13January 1991, and if you look at the very top line, it
14is ----
15A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me, I missed it. 9th November or?
16Q. [Mr Irving] 30th January?
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: 30th January 1991, Dr Frey?
18A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
19MR IRVING: Yes. If you look at the very top line, the fax
20line, it was faxed at 1.13 p.m. on the following day.
21Then the letter was probably written on January 30th,
22right?
23A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
24Q. [Mr Irving] OK. If you turn the page, please, do you see I describe
25there that a number of great Germans I intend to talk
26about, the Nobel Prize winner, Otto Hahn and
1Wernerheisenbger?
2A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
3Q. [Mr Irving] They are not leading Nazis, are they?
4A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, no.
5Q. [Mr Irving] And the great ----
6A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Although some of them I partially ----
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not leading Nazis, the answer is no?
8A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not leading Nazis, right. Excuse me.
9MR IRVING: The final sentence of the letter above the
10signature, I say: "Of course, as always at DVU functions,
11I am not going to mention the Jews or the concentration or
12extermination camps with one word"?
13A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
14Q. [Mr Irving] Then the final sentence of the PS is: "I will most
15painfully keep within the laws of Germany, the Federal
16Republic"?
17A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
18Q. [Mr Irving] Yes?
19A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
20Q. [Mr Irving] On the general matter, the proposition raised by
21Mr Rampton, that it is right-wingest to look to reunify
22Germany and all the rest of the things that he said, can
23I remind you of what the German constitution says every
24German citizen is beholden to do? Do you know the passage
25I am referring to?
26A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Tell me. I have the constitution here. What do you
1mean?
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not think we need to...
3MR IRVING: Is not every German citizen held to strive for the
4reunification of the German territories?
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you are not doing justice to
6Mr Rampton's point. He was not just talking about
7the reunification of Germany.
8MR IRVING: I was once again dealing with it piecemeal.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know it is difficult.
10MR IRVING: And I am sorry that that was not appreciated.
11THE WITNESS: It never meant unification includes parts of
12Poland, it never meant.
13MR IRVING: Thank you very much, Professor.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you. Professor Funke, that completes
15your evidence. Thank you very much.
16< (The witness withdrew)
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton and Mr Irving, can I just mention
18that, in addition to the remaining cross-examination,
19there are several other outstanding things. I am sure you
20have them in mind. There is an argument about whether the
21expert reports of Eatwell and Levin can go in.
22MR RAMPTON: No, I do not want them.
23MR IRVING: My Lord, I was about to make the opposite
24concession.
25MR RAMPTON: I do not mind. I do not want them.
26MR IRVING: My friend said that if Mr Rampton had argued on the
1basis of those authorities that he was entitled to, then
2who were we to argue against him?
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is kind, but if he does not want to,
4then the question ends. I have feeling there are some
5loose ends on Civil Evidence Act Notices in relation to
6Moscow?
7MR RAMPTON: No, I do not think so. I think all the Moscow
8evidence I need has come from Mr Irving actually probably.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good.
10MR RAMPTON: It is only the American factual witnesses and they
11are in proper condition because they have had Civil
12Evidence Act Notices.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: We need to at any rate identify those
14and ----
15MR RAMPTON: I need them for the underlying material in due
16course, but whether I do any cross-examination is a
17different matter.
18MR IRVING: At what stage can I make submissions on the
19American factual witnesses, my Lord?
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: You do not, I think, have much of a legal
21submission you could make. They are overseas. You have
22had a notice, but I am not saying do not, but at the
23moment I do not quite see how you can keep those
24statements out.
25MR RAMPTON: What Mr Irving is entitled to ----
26MR IRVING: I do not want to keep the statements out, but I
1want to make certain representations about the quality of
2their evidence, their criminal records and the rest of it.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: That, I think, is a matter for you to deal
4with in your evidence. It is not a ground for objecting
5to the statements going in under the Act.
6MR IRVING: I mean I wanted to put it in by way of submission.
7That is what I suppose I was trying to say.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will not prevent you doing that, whatever
9the form is.
10MR RAMPTON: That is what I was going to say. There is a
11provision that allows where a witness is not being called
12under the Civil Evidence Act for what one might call
13rebuttal material to be put in and, of course, and comment
14that can be made about the internal condition ----
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: The reliability of the evidence.
16MR RAMPTON: Exactly.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Quite. Good. So 10.30 tomorrow morning.
18(The court adjourned until the following day)
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1of Auschwitz.
2Q. [Mr Irving] Right, but now let me put it like this. If in a speech
3I make a number of references to the appalling horrors
4undoubtedly suffered by the victims of Auschwitz, and
5I have never made any attempt to minimize them and I
6have referred to the shootings in Russia, I have quoted
7the Bruns report, and, on the other hand, I then mock the
8eyewitnesses who have obviously lied for whatever reason
9and dreamed up these totally ludicrous stories about the
10one man portable gas chamber, is it not dishonest, in your
11view, for somebody to take just that passage out and put
12that as a representation of my entire speech?
13A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is, what you are doing is again and again. Look at the
1440 pages that was with the help of our assistant, Thomas
15Robins and Dunn, on the anti-Semitic or the rhetoric you
16did on this issue. So I recall just another quotation of
17you. So if it would be one time, we can cross over, but
18you did it again and again, and you just minutes ago
19referred that mass gassings did not happen. So if this,
20as long as this is the case, I cannot say yes to any of
21this kind of cynicism that you put to the public. Let me
22just recall this other quotation.
23Q. [Mr Irving] If it is relevant, please?
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is relevant to the question ----
25A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- but we do not want a lot of speeches?
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1A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is very short. It is like that you say, OK, this kind
2of survivors of the Holocaust, and you put it up in the
3way that you can quote it as "assholes". This cannot be.
4If you honestly, if you seriously, are saying that you
5realize the trauma of those who went through, if they
6survived.
7MR IRVING: Can I now take you to the letter dated 30th January
81991 which has been introduced by Mr Rampton?
9A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
10Q. [Mr Irving] Firstly, the question of the date. I do not know whether
11Mr Rampton meant it seriously or not, but as he said it
12I have to comment on it, if the letter is dated 30th
13January 1991, and if you look at the very top line, it
14is ----
15A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me, I missed it. 9th November or?
16Q. [Mr Irving] 30th January?
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: 30th January 1991, Dr Frey?
18A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
19MR IRVING: Yes. If you look at the very top line, the fax
20line, it was faxed at 1.13 p.m. on the following day.
21Then the letter was probably written on January 30th,
22right?
23A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
24Q. [Mr Irving] OK. If you turn the page, please, do you see I describe
25there that a number of great Germans I intend to talk
26about, the Nobel Prize winner, Otto Hahn and
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1Wernerheisenbger?
2A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
3Q. [Mr Irving] They are not leading Nazis, are they?
4A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, no.
5Q. [Mr Irving] And the great ----
6A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Although some of them I partially ----
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not leading Nazis, the answer is no?
8A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Not leading Nazis, right. Excuse me.
9MR IRVING: The final sentence of the letter above the
10signature, I say: "Of course, as always at DVU functions,
11I am not going to mention the Jews or the concentration or
12extermination camps with one word"?
13A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
14Q. [Mr Irving] Then the final sentence of the PS is: "I will most
15painfully keep within the laws of Germany, the Federal
16Republic"?
17A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
18Q. [Mr Irving] Yes?
19A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
20Q. [Mr Irving] On the general matter, the proposition raised by
21Mr Rampton, that it is right-wingest to look to reunify
22Germany and all the rest of the things that he said, can
23I remind you of what the German constitution says every
24German citizen is beholden to do? Do you know the passage
25I am referring to?
26A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Tell me. I have the constitution here. What do you
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1mean?
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not think we need to...
3MR IRVING: Is not every German citizen held to strive for the
4reunification of the German territories?
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you are not doing justice to
6Mr Rampton's point. He was not just talking about
7the reunification of Germany.
8MR IRVING: I was once again dealing with it piecemeal.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know it is difficult.
10MR IRVING: And I am sorry that that was not appreciated.
11THE WITNESS: It never meant unification includes parts of
12Poland, it never meant.
13MR IRVING: Thank you very much, Professor.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you. Professor Funke, that completes
15your evidence. Thank you very much.
16< (The witness withdrew)
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton and Mr Irving, can I just mention
18that, in addition to the remaining cross-examination,
19there are several other outstanding things. I am sure you
20have them in mind. There is an argument about whether the
21expert reports of Eatwell and Levin can go in.
22MR RAMPTON: No, I do not want them.
23MR IRVING: My Lord, I was about to make the opposite
24concession.
25MR RAMPTON: I do not mind. I do not want them.
26MR IRVING: My friend said that if Mr Rampton had argued on the
. P-202
1basis of those authorities that he was entitled to, then
2who were we to argue against him?
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is kind, but if he does not want to,
4then the question ends. I have feeling there are some
5loose ends on Civil Evidence Act Notices in relation to
6Moscow?
7MR RAMPTON: No, I do not think so. I think all the Moscow
8evidence I need has come from Mr Irving actually probably.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good.
10MR RAMPTON: It is only the American factual witnesses and they
11are in proper condition because they have had Civil
12Evidence Act Notices.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: We need to at any rate identify those
14and ----
15MR RAMPTON: I need them for the underlying material in due
16course, but whether I do any cross-examination is a
17different matter.
18MR IRVING: At what stage can I make submissions on the
19American factual witnesses, my Lord?
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: You do not, I think, have much of a legal
21submission you could make. They are overseas. You have
22had a notice, but I am not saying do not, but at the
23moment I do not quite see how you can keep those
24statements out.
25MR RAMPTON: What Mr Irving is entitled to ----
26MR IRVING: I do not want to keep the statements out, but I
. P-203
1want to make certain representations about the quality of
2their evidence, their criminal records and the rest of it.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: That, I think, is a matter for you to deal
4with in your evidence. It is not a ground for objecting
5to the statements going in under the Act.
6MR IRVING: I mean I wanted to put it in by way of submission.
7That is what I suppose I was trying to say.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will not prevent you doing that, whatever
9the form is.
10MR RAMPTON: That is what I was going to say. There is a
11provision that allows where a witness is not being called
12under the Civil Evidence Act for what one might call
13rebuttal material to be put in and, of course, and comment
14that can be made about the internal condition ----
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: The reliability of the evidence.
16MR RAMPTON: Exactly.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Quite. Good. So 10.30 tomorrow morning.
18(The court adjourned until the following day)
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