Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition
Pages 6 - 10 of 204
| << 1-5 | 11-15 > | 199-204 >> |
Is it appropriate to say something about, if we
1are talking about closing speeches, about timing, at this
2juncture?
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we wait until after we have dealt with
4(if I may so put it that way) Professor Funke?
5MR RAMPTON: It is only this, that there are a number of people
6here, and I do not shrink from saying, including me ----
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Oh, I see, you mean how long an interval? Is
8that what you are getting at?
9MR RAMPTON: Yes, because there are "social" is the wrong word,
10but there are what one might call arrangements which have
11to be made. I have been talking earnestly with
12Miss Rogers, as I often do, and we are very anxious
13because of what might happen here after in another place,
14as the lawyers call it, that we leave no stone unturned to
15make sure that your Lordship has as much material as we
16would like you to have. Of course, I say without any kind
17of sycophancy, that I am confident that the case is in
18place already, but I cannot actually, in my client's
19interests, take that risk. Therefore, we want to do a
20long rather than a short job. I can do a short job. I
21can probably do it from memory, but I do not want to do
22that. It did seem to us we would need at least a week to
23get the thing properly in place. I am strongly of the
24view, as an advocate, I do remember, like your Lordship,
25in those days being of similar view, I think that it is
26not desirable that the Defendant makes a speech before a
1weekend and the Claimant or Plaintiff after the weekend.
2Both should come in the same week.
3 My proposal is that I should start on Monday
413th, which is a week from the coming Monday and that
5Mr Irving should have as much time as he likes thereafter,
6subject, obviously, to case control.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, do you have any views about that?
8MR IRVING: Whether it would be Monday 13th or not I think is
9in the stars, because if Mr Rampton wishes to have a clear
10week, presumably, that clear week starts running from the
11end of the time I have put in documents and so on by way
12of submission, which may take more than a day.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, well, what I would be inclined to think
14in terms of, and we might have to revise this, is to have
15the whole of next week for preparing speeches, and if we
16do not finish the evidence by close of play on Thursday,
17then I think perhaps we can nibble into the week, because
18it seems to me that Monday the 13th would be a good day to
19have as a target for the start of closing speeches.
20MR RAMPTON: I would rather nibble into Friday if it came to
21it.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I do not dispute that at all.
23MR IRVING: I am afraid I do, because there is a German saying
24(German spoken) which means that a lot of dogs spell death
25to the hare, and there is a lot of dogs on the other side
26with no disrespect and there is one hare on this side.
1I am carrying the ball entirely myself.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that.
3MR IRVING: I cherish every day that I have for preparation.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I tell you what I propose to deal with that,
5is for you to have the opportunity to indicate during the
6course of that week, the week prior to 13th March, that
7you falling behind or whatever, if you really need more
8time, I do not myself think you will because you have a
9great capacity for getting through the material, but if
10you are finding it difficult then obviously I would be
11very sympathetic to further time.
12MR IRVING: I do not necessarily see the reason why it has to
13be a Monday Mr Rampton has to start unless he intends to
14speak for three whole days.
15MR RAMPTON: I doubt he will speak for three whole days but he
16might speak for the best part of one whole day.
17MR IRVING: That will allow both speeches to come within of
18compass of one week.
19MR RAMPTON: Yes. I do not mind, I was not (to use a bit of
20Latin) I was not trying to fix Monday, 13th, as a terminus
21post quo nome, but as a terminus quo nome, if I can put it
22like that, meaning to say that I do not mind when it is,
23but I do not want it before Monday 13th.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we are thinking in broadly the same
25terms.
26MR RAMPTON: I would only make other observation, it is not
1right for Mr Irving to talk about dogs and hares when
2after all it is a pack of hares that is being chased by
3one dog.
4MR IRVING: Rabbits.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Professor Funke, you have something
6else to say? You did only mention two, yes.
7A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. It relates to the Congress of 21st April '90 in
8Munich. I read the diary again and there is clearly
9described how and what form it was illegal, and that was
10the reference I had also to write it in my report. It was
11illegal demonstration after the Congress, and it is stated
12very clearly. The other thing I have to mention that to
13my best assessment the diary and the video converts to
14that, that at a given period of time he was with
15marching.
16THE INTERPRETER: Marching along with?
17A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Along with Kuhnen and the others towards the Vertherren
18Halle. I think it is very clear if you put these things
19together and also the letters Mr Irving gave us yesterday
20in the bundle J.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much, Professor Funke, for
22those three points. Mr Irving?
23MR IRVING: My Lord, I do not think your Lordship will attach
24much attention to whether other members of the audience
25went off on a demonstration which was illegal or not.
26I would invite straightaway, therefore, this witness to
1have a look at page 11 of the little bundle.
2A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This new one or the old one.
3MR IRVING: It is today's bundle.
4A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Today's bundle? OK.
5Q. [Mr Irving] It is the bundle beginning with some German pages. If you
6look at page 11, that should be the diary concerned, April
721st 1990, is that correct?
8A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, I have here ----
9Q. [Mr Irving] No, not photographs. It is another bundle.
10A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me. It is a new bundle of yesterday?
11Q. [Mr Irving] Of today.
12A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Today, OK, good.
13Q. [Mr Irving] Page 11. Is this the diary entry to which you have just
14referred?
15A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It seems to, yes, in a different written form.
16Q. [Mr Irving] A different format, yes?
17A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, format.
18Q. [Mr Irving] My Lord, I do not propose to read the whole diary entry
19out, of course, but I would just invite this witness ----
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: If Miss Rogers can give me the reference in
21RWE 1 or 2, I would be grateful for this diary entry,
22April 21st.
23MS ROGERS: If it is on 21st April, it is RWE 2, tab 11, pages
2419 to 20.
25MR IRVING: My Lord, what I have given your Lordship in this
26morning's bundle is the entire diary entry. I am not sure
1are talking about closing speeches, about timing, at this
2juncture?
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we wait until after we have dealt with
4(if I may so put it that way) Professor Funke?
5MR RAMPTON: It is only this, that there are a number of people
6here, and I do not shrink from saying, including me ----
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Oh, I see, you mean how long an interval? Is
8that what you are getting at?
9MR RAMPTON: Yes, because there are "social" is the wrong word,
10but there are what one might call arrangements which have
11to be made. I have been talking earnestly with
12Miss Rogers, as I often do, and we are very anxious
13because of what might happen here after in another place,
14as the lawyers call it, that we leave no stone unturned to
15make sure that your Lordship has as much material as we
16would like you to have. Of course, I say without any kind
17of sycophancy, that I am confident that the case is in
18place already, but I cannot actually, in my client's
19interests, take that risk. Therefore, we want to do a
20long rather than a short job. I can do a short job. I
21can probably do it from memory, but I do not want to do
22that. It did seem to us we would need at least a week to
23get the thing properly in place. I am strongly of the
24view, as an advocate, I do remember, like your Lordship,
25in those days being of similar view, I think that it is
26not desirable that the Defendant makes a speech before a
. P-6
1weekend and the Claimant or Plaintiff after the weekend.
2Both should come in the same week.
3 My proposal is that I should start on Monday
413th, which is a week from the coming Monday and that
5Mr Irving should have as much time as he likes thereafter,
6subject, obviously, to case control.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, do you have any views about that?
8MR IRVING: Whether it would be Monday 13th or not I think is
9in the stars, because if Mr Rampton wishes to have a clear
10week, presumably, that clear week starts running from the
11end of the time I have put in documents and so on by way
12of submission, which may take more than a day.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, well, what I would be inclined to think
14in terms of, and we might have to revise this, is to have
15the whole of next week for preparing speeches, and if we
16do not finish the evidence by close of play on Thursday,
17then I think perhaps we can nibble into the week, because
18it seems to me that Monday the 13th would be a good day to
19have as a target for the start of closing speeches.
20MR RAMPTON: I would rather nibble into Friday if it came to
21it.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I do not dispute that at all.
23MR IRVING: I am afraid I do, because there is a German saying
24(German spoken) which means that a lot of dogs spell death
25to the hare, and there is a lot of dogs on the other side
26with no disrespect and there is one hare on this side.
. P-7
1I am carrying the ball entirely myself.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: I follow that.
3MR IRVING: I cherish every day that I have for preparation.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: I tell you what I propose to deal with that,
5is for you to have the opportunity to indicate during the
6course of that week, the week prior to 13th March, that
7you falling behind or whatever, if you really need more
8time, I do not myself think you will because you have a
9great capacity for getting through the material, but if
10you are finding it difficult then obviously I would be
11very sympathetic to further time.
12MR IRVING: I do not necessarily see the reason why it has to
13be a Monday Mr Rampton has to start unless he intends to
14speak for three whole days.
15MR RAMPTON: I doubt he will speak for three whole days but he
16might speak for the best part of one whole day.
17MR IRVING: That will allow both speeches to come within of
18compass of one week.
19MR RAMPTON: Yes. I do not mind, I was not (to use a bit of
20Latin) I was not trying to fix Monday, 13th, as a terminus
21post quo nome, but as a terminus quo nome, if I can put it
22like that, meaning to say that I do not mind when it is,
23but I do not want it before Monday 13th.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we are thinking in broadly the same
25terms.
26MR RAMPTON: I would only make other observation, it is not
. P-8
1right for Mr Irving to talk about dogs and hares when
2after all it is a pack of hares that is being chased by
3one dog.
4MR IRVING: Rabbits.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Professor Funke, you have something
6else to say? You did only mention two, yes.
7A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. It relates to the Congress of 21st April '90 in
8Munich. I read the diary again and there is clearly
9described how and what form it was illegal, and that was
10the reference I had also to write it in my report. It was
11illegal demonstration after the Congress, and it is stated
12very clearly. The other thing I have to mention that to
13my best assessment the diary and the video converts to
14that, that at a given period of time he was with
15marching.
16THE INTERPRETER: Marching along with?
17A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Along with Kuhnen and the others towards the Vertherren
18Halle. I think it is very clear if you put these things
19together and also the letters Mr Irving gave us yesterday
20in the bundle J.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much, Professor Funke, for
22those three points. Mr Irving?
23MR IRVING: My Lord, I do not think your Lordship will attach
24much attention to whether other members of the audience
25went off on a demonstration which was illegal or not.
26I would invite straightaway, therefore, this witness to
. P-9
1have a look at page 11 of the little bundle.
2A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This new one or the old one.
3MR IRVING: It is today's bundle.
4A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Today's bundle? OK.
5Q. [Mr Irving] It is the bundle beginning with some German pages. If you
6look at page 11, that should be the diary concerned, April
721st 1990, is that correct?
8A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, I have here ----
9Q. [Mr Irving] No, not photographs. It is another bundle.
10A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me. It is a new bundle of yesterday?
11Q. [Mr Irving] Of today.
12A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Today, OK, good.
13Q. [Mr Irving] Page 11. Is this the diary entry to which you have just
14referred?
15A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It seems to, yes, in a different written form.
16Q. [Mr Irving] A different format, yes?
17A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, format.
18Q. [Mr Irving] My Lord, I do not propose to read the whole diary entry
19out, of course, but I would just invite this witness ----
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: If Miss Rogers can give me the reference in
21RWE 1 or 2, I would be grateful for this diary entry,
22April 21st.
23MS ROGERS: If it is on 21st April, it is RWE 2, tab 11, pages
2419 to 20.
25MR IRVING: My Lord, what I have given your Lordship in this
26morning's bundle is the entire diary entry. I am not sure
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| << 1-5 | 11-15 > | 199-204 >> |