Irving v. Lipstadt

 1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
 2Royal Courts of Justice
 3Strand, London
 4Thursday, 2nd March 2000
 5
 6Before:
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY
 8
 9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
10Claimant -and-
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
13Defendants
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
20
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
Counsell &Company)
24
25PROCEEDINGS - DAY TWENTY-NINE
26

.   P-1

---

 1(10.30 a.m.)
 2MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Mr Rampton and Mr Irving, before we start
 3today, I wonder if I can hand to you now a list of
 4issues?
 5MR IRVING:    Yes.
 6MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I think I did mention earlier that it might
 7be helpful -- it is up to both of you -- if we could
 8perhaps take the issues in more or less the order in which
 9I have set them out, if that is not inconvenient? I also
10want to make sure that I have got everything in that
11I need to cover, and that I have not included things that
12really are no longer live issues. Do not take time with
13it now.
14MR RAMPTON:    No, I will not. There is one item in (i) of four
15which is still to come today from Evans, which will need
16to be added.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes. It is just that either at a later stage
18today, or perhaps tomorrow, it might be worth spending a
19few minutes just going through that.
20MR RAMPTON:    I do not think I will finish my cross-examination
21today.
22MR IRVING:    That is very useful, my Lord. There are four or
23five minor points that I wish to raise before Mr Rampton
24resumes.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes.
26MR IRVING:    The first point is that I have repeatedly asked the

.   P-2

---

 1Defence to provide me with the speeches, the transcripts
 2on disk, most recently about 10 days ago by letter. It
 3would obviously assist me in responding to and rebutting
 4these juicy morsels that they are tossed out of their cage
 5into the courtroom, like yesterday. If I had such a thing
 6on disk, and I am entitled to it of course under the
 7rules, once the documents have been pleaded, I am entitled
 8to have them in digital form. There is no reason for this
 9delay other than a deliberate and wilful attempt to impede
10my response.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY:    So that I am clear what you are asking for,
12is it a disk containing the speeches that you have made
13that the Defendants rely on?
14MR IRVING:    No, it is a disk containing the transcripts. They
15are put into court by way of their pleadings in evidence.
16Obviously it exists in digital form. It is no great
17burden on them. It is five minutes work to do, just
18pressing one button. They could have done this 10 days
19ago, if not, indeed, when I first asked for them.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY:    It does not sound an unreasonable request.
21MR RAMPTON:    I have no idea. I do not deal in disks, I am
22afraid. I deal in paper. I will pass on that request.
23I am surprised it has not been responded to. If it is
24anybody's fault, I apologise for it on their behalf. If
25these transcripts -- and I think Mr Irving means the
26transcripts that are in the K files ----

.   P-3

---

 1MR IRVING:    Yes.
 2MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes, which is racism, anti-Semitism, or
 3allegedly so.
 4MR RAMPTON:    -- which are mostly his own words. If they are on
 5a disk, which I imagine they must be, then by all means,
 6if it is easier.
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I think I know they are on disk because I am
 8not -- well, anyway, if it can be done, it should be done
 9soon because Mr Irving needs it.
10MR RAMPTON:    If it is possible, it should be done before the
11weekend.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Before the weekend, I agree, yes.
13MR IRVING:    A not unrelated matter is that the Defence
14solicitors are still sitting on a number of my microfilms
15and papers. They keep promising to return them. When
16they returned my previous boxes of papers, they returned
17them in a totally disheveled state, which has not assisted
18me ----
19MR JUSTICE GRAY:    That is something I do not really want to get
20into now. Raise that, but perhaps at a later stage.
21MR IRVING:    The third point, my Lord, is the Eichmann
22manuscripts. I gave the undertaking which your Lordship
23very properly required. The manuscript has now been
24placed in the public domain. It is on, for example, the
25website of Der Spiegel and elsewhere. I would ask that
26the undertaking which I gave should now be rescinded or

.   P-4

---

 1annulled, if Mr Rampton has no objection, in order that I
 2am not----
 3MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I suspect he may not really know the score on
 4that.
 5MR RAMPTON:    I do not know the score. I am told that that
 6version, which is the electronic version, that came to us
 7from the Israeli Government cannot be used for any purpose
 8but this trial. If it is on some website or other, then
 9perhaps we can have our disk back so we can give it back
10to the Israeli Government, and people can use the public
11domain copy.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Well ...
13MR IRVING:    Without wanting to compare the public domain
14version word for word with the version given to me, I see
15that it has been published in the Guardian yesterday, for
16example.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I have seen reports which make it appear that
18you may be right.
19MR IRVING:    Having given the undertaking ----
20MR JUSTICE GRAY:    What I am not in a position to judge is
21whether the whole of it is in now in the public domain.
22If the whole of it is, then it seems to me that you should
23be released from your, undertaking, but I am not going to
24release you now. I do not think this is really in a way
25Mr Rampton's problem.
26MR RAMPTON:    My problem is that I am merely the conduit pipe

.   P-5

---

 1for this material. I gave my own personal undertaking in
 2order to get the material released; I do not really feel I
 3can break it.
 4MR JUSTICE GRAY:    To save time, what I am inclined to say is
 5this. It does appear to me that there is good reason for
 6supposing that it is in the public domain. If that be
 7right, I do not see it is realistic to maintain the
 8undertaking. I am therefore inclined to think it should
 9be lifted, but I would like to give an opportunity to
10whoever it may be to make representations, whether through
11you or in some other way.
12MR IRVING:    I do not want to be held in contempt.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Of course you do not, but the undertaking
14will stay until tomorrow morning. If somebody tomorrow
15morning wants to say that the undertaking should remain in
16place, I will hear argument then.
17MR IRVING:    My Lord, tomorrow is Friday.
18MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I know, but I suspect your cross-examination
19is going to continue until tomorrow.
20MR RAMPTON:    I do not know that there is going to be any
21difficulty at all. The only difficulty I can see, and it
22is mere conjecture, is that there may be parts of the
23electronic version which has been given to Mr Irving for
24the purposes of this case and no other purpose. There may
25be parts of that which are not in the copy which has been
26released.

.   P-6

---