Irving v. Lipstadt

    Yes. I am again perfectly happy with that.
 1applies to Mr Irving as well, what I think is very
 2difficult in this case, which is the sequence in which it
 3is sensible to take the issues, because they all mesh into
 4one another and overlap and so on, and it is quite
 5important that the judgment ----
 6MR IRVING:    As drafted by your Lordship?
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY:    What I am trying to do is to make the
 8judgment flow, if that is the right word, or be
 9comprehensible.
10MR IRVING:    I am sure that your Lordship being an outsider will
11have synthesized the matters adequately and absolutely
12probably.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY:    If you have any suggestions for improving it
14in that respect, then I would be grateful.
15MR RAMPTON:    My Lord, I have some housekeeping that I am
16supposed to do. First, they are on the list, little
17sections for RWE 1 Staglich and Varela 8A and 8B. They
18are very small.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes. That is that. What else?
20MR RAMPTON:    I promised a response if I could get one from
21Professor van Pelt about those three labour camps that
22Mr Irving produced. I have the response and I would like
23to add it, if I may, as a supplement to Professor van
24Pelt's report. It contains some typographical errors but
25no matter.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY:    It is all very well just throwing documents

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 1at me, but this is another 20 pages. What is this?
 2MR RAMPTON:    The broad conclusion is very simple. They have
 3got nothing whatever to do with extermination. Those are
 4documents which deal with keeping up the levels of
 5workers, because they date from a period which arrived
 6I think in 1942, they deal with a period when the SS,
 7unlike the preceding period, had started hiring out its
 8workers to commercial companies like I.G. Faben and so on,
 9and therefore there came a concern because these workers
10were no condition to do the jobs they were being paid for,
11and they were paid, there came a concern that the SS camps
12were letting their slave workers die like flies instead of
13keeping them fit and healthy to work in the factories.
14This is connected, according to Professor van Pelt,
15obviously and naturally with the fact that the Germans
16needing to recruit soldiers were having to take them from
17factories in the greater Reich, and so needed the slave
18labour to keep the war economy going.
19    He then explains why this has absolutely no
20connection with the extermination, first, because the
21exterminees, if I can call them that, were not registered
22as worker prisoners, and second because of course they do
23not concern any of the extermination camps.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY:    So it is exactly what Professor Funke says?
25MR RAMPTON:    Yes, that is what Professor Longerich says.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I am sorry, Longerich.

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 1MR RAMPTON:    It was observed by your Lordship in the course of
 2the cross-examination that Mr Irving's questions were
 3directed to the wrong witness.
 4MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Actually it was Professor Funke, was it not?
 5MR RAMPTON:    No, it was Professor Longerich.
 6MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Anyway, whoever.
 7MR RAMPTON:    So that is what that deals with.
 8MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Thank you very much.
 9MR RAMPTON:    I am not suggesting your Lordship read it now or
10anything like that, but I may make reference to it in
11closing. Then the next thing, my Lord ----
12MR IRVING:    Before we move on from that, my Lord, what kind of
13document is this?
14MR JUSTICE GRAY:    It is further evidence which actually to be
15fair to the Defendants ----
16MR RAMPTON:    Mr Irving laughs ----
17MR JUSTICE GRAY:    --- resulted from your putting documents
18which I think had not really been seen before, I do not
19think they were disclosed documents ----
20MR RAMPTON:    Absolutely not.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY:    --- in the course of your cross-examination,
22I thought it was of Professor Funke but I am sure
23Mr Rampton is right, it was Dr Longerich. Do you remember
24that?
25MR IRVING:    Yes, but the difference is of course I have had the
26chance to cross-examine and Mr Rampton has had the chance

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 1to re-examine on those documents. On this of course
 2I have no possibility of making any comment at all.
 3MR JUSTICE GRAY:    No, you have every opportunity to make
 4comments about it. What you cannot do is cross-examine
 5Professor van Pelt because he is in Canada presumably.
 6MR IRVING:    It is neither fish nor foul really.
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY:    No, on the contrary, it is further evidence.
 8You are perfectly right, you have not had the opportunity
 9to cross-examine him. I am not quite sure what you could
10really have put to him in cross-examination that you did
11not already put to Dr Longerich.
12MR IRVING:    Your Lordship says further evidence; it is a
13further statement, it is a further opinion.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY:    In the way we use the term evidence experts'
15reports are evidence.
16MR IRVING:    I am sure your Lordship will attach the proper
17weight to it.
18MR RAMPTON:    I protest at that. Mr Irving pulled out of his
19back pocket far too late for us to get Professor van Pelt
20to deal with it in the witness boxes, long after he had
21gone back to Canada, expecting poor Dr Longerich, who is
22not a Holocaust expert, to deal with it, and then
23complains because I get the proper witness to deal with it
24on paper.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I am afraid that is why it seems to me to be
26fair to let it in, which I have done. I have already said

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 1it could go in. You must deal with it, Mr Irving, by
 2making any submissions you want in relation to it. It
 3seemed to me actually when Dr Longerich was in the box, it
 4was fairly obviously right that it was dealing only with
 5what one might call camp inmates in the proper sense
 6rather than people who never got as far as the camp
 7itself.
 8MR IRVING:    It is difficult to fit in with the accepted picture
 9of the extermination programme which is the reason
10why ----
11MR JUSTICE GRAY:    That is the sort of point you can develop in
12your final speech.
13MR IRVING:    It goes to the scale operation again, which is one
14of the main planks of my case.
15MR RAMPTON:    So Mr Irving says. Let us deal with all that in a
16week or so hence, if we may. Then, my Lord, I have the
17little clip of documents relating to Mr Irving's, in our
18book, misrepresentation of what Judge Biddle wrote in his
19notes at Nuremberg about the evidence of Mme
20Valliant-Couturier.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY:    What extra do I need on that?
22MR RAMPTON:    You do not. You just need the papers in one
23convenient lump.
24MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I have them already.
25MR RAMPTON:    I see, well, that is fine. We were told by
26somebody that your Lordship had not got them. It is K2,

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 1it is Auschwitz, tab 7.
 2MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Did I tell that you or not?
 3MR RAMPTON:    Not your Lordship. Maybe it has been Chinese
 4whispers that we got from somewhere. It is tab 7 of K2.
 5MS ROGERS:    Mr Rampton hates filing more than me, my Lord.
 6MR JUSTICE GRAY:    The answer is I have some of the file but not
 7all of it.
 8MS ROGERS:    I think it is sensible for your Lordship to have
 9the lot in one place.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I agree, yes.
11MS ROGERS:    I am taking over on the housekeeping.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY:    I think that is a good idea.
13MS ROGERS:    It is too boring for Mr Rampton. Your Lordship has
14been asking for the denial statements put together in one
15lump.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes.
17MS ROGERS:    In a sense the hard copy form is going to be less
18useful than the disk copy which will follow, but for now
19could this go into the front of K3?
20MR JUSTICE GRAY:    Yes. That effectively means I can discard
21K3.
22MS ROGERS:    I think not. Mr Irving relies on context so much
23that I think ----
24MR JUSTICE GRAY:    For that purpose, yes.
25MS ROGERS:    --- it is better to keep them there, and the
26passages on that document are the passages which have been

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