Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 30: Electronic Edition
Pages 22 - 27 of 33
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I have the 21st actually. I have just
1spotted that that was not right. I suspect the reason is
2it is a diary entry for the following day, I do not know.
3MR RAMPTON: That is right. Something went wrong there. Yes,
4and I do have the German of that which goes in bundle N at
5pages 127 and 127B. The English is already there, thanks
6to Professor Evans. But the German somehow got missed
7out. The relevant passage ----
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is N?
9MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is N, N1. I do not think N has any
10children yet, has it?
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it has. E is the most difficult one
12because ----
13MR IRVING: It is very exclusive, is it not? It excludes a lot
14of the entries that I would have relied upon.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, yes, it is exclusive and at the same
16time it is inclusive. I had not realized it is spread as
17wide as this, at any rate in the context of the
18historiographical criticisms.
19MR RAMPTON: It does, and there are very, very grave criticisms
20to be made of Mr Irving in relation to each of those items
21in the bracket, and they all relate to the way in which,
22according to our case, he has tried to suppress, mollify
23or distort Hitler's expressions of his anti-Semitism
24during the war, particularly during the later part of 1941
25and the early part of 1942.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I can see how they come in now.
1MR RAMPTON: Those are inclusive rather than exhaustive.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I mean the problem I have with them is
3that they come in elsewhere too.
4MR RAMPTON: I know they do. There is bound to be some
5repetition. That is inevitable.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know. Can I ask you what the significance
7is, I think I do understand, of adding decrypts to
8whatever it is, 3B?
9MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is simply because Mr Irving relies on
10two pieces of evidence, if I can call it that, for the
11suggestion that the number killed or died at Auschwitz was
12really quite low. One is the death books which were
13released by Moscow sometime in recent years, and the other
14thing is the Hinsley decrypts do not make any reference
15gassings at Birkenhau.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
17MR RAMPTON: So they really go together, and our explanation
18for that is that really they are the same in both cases or
19similar anyway.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. As I say, I am inclined to add, if we
21are making this as complete as it is becoming, two further
22topics at the end, which is the conclusion as to
23substantial truth and the availability, if required, of
24section 5, and then lastly damages, if any, injunction.
25If any.
26MR RAMPTON: Would your Lordship be wanting then to transfer
1some particularity out of 4 on the first page?
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, because that is conclusions as to the law
3that applies, is it not, rather than conclusions?
4MR RAMPTON: So 11 would be facts arising out of 4, would it
5not, or something like that?
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
7MR RAMPTON: The facts governed by the principles in 4?
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Good. If in the course of preparing
9final speeches either of you come across topics that
10should be there but still are not, perhaps you could let
11me know by fax?
12MR RAMPTON: We certainly will. That brings me to what to us
13is a matter of, to say some concern sounds over-dramatic,
14but it is this. I do not want and do not propose to ask
15your Lordship for permission to stand here for three days
16speaking. That would not be interesting for anybody and
17it would not be a good use of the court's time. However,
18this is a case of some peculiar importance, we would
19submit, and it has a legitimate interest for the public
20which runs far beyond the particular interests of the
21parties, and I do concede that it is the sort of case in
22which it would be appropriate, with your Lordship's
23permission, for both sides to be allowed to make a
24somewhat longer, but still not very long, longer closing
25statement than they made in opening. In my case, it would
26not necessarily follow the same structure as this, the
1long version, but it would certainly reflect the material
2within it.
3 There are two next questions. First, when does
4your Lordship believe that that should happen, because
5again the public needs to know when it is going to
6happen? As a corollary of that, whether there is any
7possibility of accommodating rather more people in this
8court than are presently able to get in?
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Taking all that in reverse order, and subject
10to Mr Irving and then you can comment if you wish, I see
11your point about letting more people in. This court I
12think in the end probably accommodates as many members of
13the public as any court does, but it is never enough in a
14case of this kind. But, yes, I think, subject to
15agreement with all those concerned, particularly the Usher
16who has done a rather excellent job of keeping things
17under control ----
18MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving has been sycophantic towards my
19solicitors, for which I genuinely and sincerely thank
20him, I do wish to say what a fantastic job the Usher has
21done.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think she has done a jolly good job because
23it is not all that easy. But, yes, within reason I think
24we will try to accommodate that. I am just wondering
25about the desirability of you and, if Mr Irving wishes to,
26Mr Irving, making what you might call the sort of public
1comments that you wish to make, as it were, before we get
2on to the nitty-gritty of the closing speeches.
3MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship may well have rather, if I may say
4so without impertinence, a good point, because it does
5seem to me that when your Lordship has had a chance to
6look at the nitty-gritty, I am going to write the
7nitty-gritty first, and then what one might call the
8summary. I would suggest that it may be advantageous if
9your Lordship's mental process is the same, because when
10you have read the nitty-gritty, then you look at the
11summary and you say, oh, he cannot say that, it is not in
12the evidence or it is an exaggeration or whatever. One
13could get the long version to your Lordship, we will try
14to do it by Friday, but at any rate by Monday morning,
15take a day, because it will not take long to read as your
16Lordship is so familiar with the material, I can
17practically do it from memory now, and then look at the
18summary and then maybe read the summary on Tuesday, 14th.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, at all events whenever it happens, and
20it does not really matter whether it happens before or
21after the detailed submissions, my idea is that we might
22have the two final public speeches, if you follow what
23I mean, along side one another.
24MR RAMPTON: Absolutely, on the same day.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: And probably on Tuesday.
26MR IRVING: Not along side each other.
1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not simultaneously.
2MR RAMPTON: I do not think that would be music to anybody's
3ears I have to say, but certainly on the same day. It
4would have to be, I say "have to be", that is excessive,
5but it would be desirable to have a fixed day because
6there will be people coming from all over the world to
7attend to attend.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we say Wednesday, because I suspect
9that will get us most of the way through the detailed
10submissions.
11MR IRVING: My Lord, your Lordship expressed the desire I think
12to have the opportunity to ask questions on the basis ----
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
14MR RAMPTON: Yes, absolutely.
15MR IRVING: When do you wish to do this, after the verbal
16part?
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, what I am getting at is if we have two
18full days, Monday 13th and Tuesday 14th, I think we will
19be most of the way through closing speeches, I suspect, if
20you let me do a bit of reading beforehand. Then on
21Wednesday, there may be a little left over, but Wednesday
22would be a good opportunity I think to make these
23statements for public consumption, which in the context of
24this case is legitimate. I think in other cases it might
25not be.
26MR IRVING:
1spotted that that was not right. I suspect the reason is
2it is a diary entry for the following day, I do not know.
3MR RAMPTON: That is right. Something went wrong there. Yes,
4and I do have the German of that which goes in bundle N at
5pages 127 and 127B. The English is already there, thanks
6to Professor Evans. But the German somehow got missed
7out. The relevant passage ----
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is N?
9MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is N, N1. I do not think N has any
10children yet, has it?
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it has. E is the most difficult one
12because ----
13MR IRVING: It is very exclusive, is it not? It excludes a lot
14of the entries that I would have relied upon.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, yes, it is exclusive and at the same
16time it is inclusive. I had not realized it is spread as
17wide as this, at any rate in the context of the
18historiographical criticisms.
19MR RAMPTON: It does, and there are very, very grave criticisms
20to be made of Mr Irving in relation to each of those items
21in the bracket, and they all relate to the way in which,
22according to our case, he has tried to suppress, mollify
23or distort Hitler's expressions of his anti-Semitism
24during the war, particularly during the later part of 1941
25and the early part of 1942.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I can see how they come in now.
. P-22
1MR RAMPTON: Those are inclusive rather than exhaustive.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I mean the problem I have with them is
3that they come in elsewhere too.
4MR RAMPTON: I know they do. There is bound to be some
5repetition. That is inevitable.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know. Can I ask you what the significance
7is, I think I do understand, of adding decrypts to
8whatever it is, 3B?
9MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is simply because Mr Irving relies on
10two pieces of evidence, if I can call it that, for the
11suggestion that the number killed or died at Auschwitz was
12really quite low. One is the death books which were
13released by Moscow sometime in recent years, and the other
14thing is the Hinsley decrypts do not make any reference
15gassings at Birkenhau.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
17MR RAMPTON: So they really go together, and our explanation
18for that is that really they are the same in both cases or
19similar anyway.
20MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. As I say, I am inclined to add, if we
21are making this as complete as it is becoming, two further
22topics at the end, which is the conclusion as to
23substantial truth and the availability, if required, of
24section 5, and then lastly damages, if any, injunction.
25If any.
26MR RAMPTON: Would your Lordship be wanting then to transfer
. P-23
1some particularity out of 4 on the first page?
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, because that is conclusions as to the law
3that applies, is it not, rather than conclusions?
4MR RAMPTON: So 11 would be facts arising out of 4, would it
5not, or something like that?
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
7MR RAMPTON: The facts governed by the principles in 4?
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Good. If in the course of preparing
9final speeches either of you come across topics that
10should be there but still are not, perhaps you could let
11me know by fax?
12MR RAMPTON: We certainly will. That brings me to what to us
13is a matter of, to say some concern sounds over-dramatic,
14but it is this. I do not want and do not propose to ask
15your Lordship for permission to stand here for three days
16speaking. That would not be interesting for anybody and
17it would not be a good use of the court's time. However,
18this is a case of some peculiar importance, we would
19submit, and it has a legitimate interest for the public
20which runs far beyond the particular interests of the
21parties, and I do concede that it is the sort of case in
22which it would be appropriate, with your Lordship's
23permission, for both sides to be allowed to make a
24somewhat longer, but still not very long, longer closing
25statement than they made in opening. In my case, it would
26not necessarily follow the same structure as this, the
. P-24
1long version, but it would certainly reflect the material
2within it.
3 There are two next questions. First, when does
4your Lordship believe that that should happen, because
5again the public needs to know when it is going to
6happen? As a corollary of that, whether there is any
7possibility of accommodating rather more people in this
8court than are presently able to get in?
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: Taking all that in reverse order, and subject
10to Mr Irving and then you can comment if you wish, I see
11your point about letting more people in. This court I
12think in the end probably accommodates as many members of
13the public as any court does, but it is never enough in a
14case of this kind. But, yes, I think, subject to
15agreement with all those concerned, particularly the Usher
16who has done a rather excellent job of keeping things
17under control ----
18MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving has been sycophantic towards my
19solicitors, for which I genuinely and sincerely thank
20him, I do wish to say what a fantastic job the Usher has
21done.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think she has done a jolly good job because
23it is not all that easy. But, yes, within reason I think
24we will try to accommodate that. I am just wondering
25about the desirability of you and, if Mr Irving wishes to,
26Mr Irving, making what you might call the sort of public
. P-25
1comments that you wish to make, as it were, before we get
2on to the nitty-gritty of the closing speeches.
3MR RAMPTON: Your Lordship may well have rather, if I may say
4so without impertinence, a good point, because it does
5seem to me that when your Lordship has had a chance to
6look at the nitty-gritty, I am going to write the
7nitty-gritty first, and then what one might call the
8summary. I would suggest that it may be advantageous if
9your Lordship's mental process is the same, because when
10you have read the nitty-gritty, then you look at the
11summary and you say, oh, he cannot say that, it is not in
12the evidence or it is an exaggeration or whatever. One
13could get the long version to your Lordship, we will try
14to do it by Friday, but at any rate by Monday morning,
15take a day, because it will not take long to read as your
16Lordship is so familiar with the material, I can
17practically do it from memory now, and then look at the
18summary and then maybe read the summary on Tuesday, 14th.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, at all events whenever it happens, and
20it does not really matter whether it happens before or
21after the detailed submissions, my idea is that we might
22have the two final public speeches, if you follow what
23I mean, along side one another.
24MR RAMPTON: Absolutely, on the same day.
25MR JUSTICE GRAY: And probably on Tuesday.
26MR IRVING: Not along side each other.
. P-26
1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not simultaneously.
2MR RAMPTON: I do not think that would be music to anybody's
3ears I have to say, but certainly on the same day. It
4would have to be, I say "have to be", that is excessive,
5but it would be desirable to have a fixed day because
6there will be people coming from all over the world to
7attend to attend.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we say Wednesday, because I suspect
9that will get us most of the way through the detailed
10submissions.
11MR IRVING: My Lord, your Lordship expressed the desire I think
12to have the opportunity to ask questions on the basis ----
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
14MR RAMPTON: Yes, absolutely.
15MR IRVING: When do you wish to do this, after the verbal
16part?
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, what I am getting at is if we have two
18full days, Monday 13th and Tuesday 14th, I think we will
19be most of the way through closing speeches, I suspect, if
20you let me do a bit of reading beforehand. Then on
21Wednesday, there may be a little left over, but Wednesday
22would be a good opportunity I think to make these
23statements for public consumption, which in the context of
24this case is legitimate. I think in other cases it might
25not be.
26MR IRVING:
. P-27
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