Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 30: Electronic Edition
Pages 28 - 33 of 33
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So, if I understood it correctly because there was
1some confusion on Thursday evening, by the weekend I and
2Mr Rampton would have submitted to your Lordship a paper
3version of what we intend to say?
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you can do that it would be helpful, that
5I think is what I said on Thursday.
6MR IRVING: On the basis of which on Monday and Tuesday you
7will ask us questions, and on Wednesday we read out either
8in Mr Rampton's case his summary or in my case whatever
9I consider necessary of my speech in public.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. When you say I will ask questions, do
11not put the ball wholly in my court. I am hoping you will
12submit something in writing, but will also make the points
13that you regard as most significant and then I can pick
14you up on them if needs be.
15MR IRVING: My Lord, I am making further submissions, as your
16Lordship is aware, of which of course the Defence have not
17had a chance to answer, and it is only fair they should
18have a chance to answer and say, "This be struck out, that
19is not admissible, yes, this one is very powerful indeed".
20MR RAMPTON: I would propose this, that we, with Mr Irving, it
21does not need to involve the court, we make a date and a
22time for exchange of the long versions, and also the
23summaries if they are ready by then, then we see whether
24there is any water between us, and it may well be that
25there is, either side may be something the other side does
26not think they ought to be allowed to say, and your
1Lordship may also have some queries or questions of your
2own.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. As to timing, if you could do it by
4close of business on Thursday, even if it is not the
5final -- you could not?
6MR IRVING: No, not by Thursday.
7MR RAMPTON: I could not possibly do it by then. I will try to
8do by close of business on Friday. It will not take very
9long to read. One reads quite quickly when one knows a
10case well. I am told Friday logistically is optimistic.
11We will do the best we can. We will fix that with
12Mr Irving.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will not say anything about it, except that
14I think we ought to have speeches on Monday 13th. I do
15not want a slip on that.
16MR RAMPTON: A discussion about speeches?
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: The detail of speeches will start on Monday
1813th.
19MR IRVING: But they will not be public at that time?
20MR RAMPTON: The public can be in court during the discussion.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course they can, but there is extra
22accommodation being laid on, as it were, for Wednesday.
23MR RAMPTON: The only other question is, and normally speaking
24in a case like this when one has written a long speech
25which the Judge has read, even if one is not going to read
26it in court, it will of course be accessible to anybody
1who wants a copy of it, whether they pay for it or whether
2they do not, and there ought to be perhaps an embargo on
3the release of the long version until the discussion about
4the long version has concluded.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, without any doubt.
6MR RAMPTON: That leads me to mention one other thing. I am a
7bit of ahead of myself. It is this. When your Lordship
8comes to give judgment in the normal way the solicitors
9and counsel get a copy of the judgment a day before.
10Mr Irving does not have solicitors or counsel. (A) it is
11not fair if we get it a day before and he does not. (B)
12it is not fair if he gets a copy himself and my clients do
13not.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Oddly enough I did not think I have ever had
15it.
16MR RAMPTON: I have.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: One has had cases with litigants in person,
18but I have never had this particular problem about how you
19deal with -- my instinct would be that Mr Irving does get
20it at the same time as your legal team get it, but that he
21is, as it were, strictly embargoed as to the use that he
22can make of it. That seem to me to be the fair-handed way
23of doing it.
24MR RAMPTON: That is all I am concerned about. What I do not
25want is him getting it into the public forum before we do,
26if I can put it crudely.
1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I mention some things that perhaps should
2be done before speeches. One is the Muller document.
3MR RAMPTON: Yes, it is in hand. It is being dealt with by
4Dr Longerich who is dealing directly with Munich and I
5think also with Ludwigsburg where it is thought there is
6another copy.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Bearing in mind how quick Munich was to
8respond on the other document, I would be hopeful that you
9would be able to let me have something this week.
10MR RAMPTON: Yes. This is more problematical because they have
11been given the wrong file reference.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought they had tracked down the right
13file?
14MR RAMPTON: No, they know that it is the wrong one. They
15think they have the document but they have got to find
16it.
17MR IRVING: The problem with Munich is all that all that they
18have is a duplicated copy.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know and that is why enquiries are being
20made of other archives, as I understand it. That is
21fine. Mr Rampton, the other thing, and it is the only
22thing that I think I need to ask you about is, I think you
23were going to give me a little bit help on what you might
24call the American Civil Evidence Act statements.
25MR RAMPTON: Yes. That is in charge of Miss Rogers. We are
26just down to the one now. The only one of the factual
1Civil Evidence Act witnesses we want to use is Rebecca
2Guttmann about the National Alliance which I have already
3cross-examined on. Your Lordship can have this. It has
4file C, Rebecca Guttmann, and the rest can be chucked
5away.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: When you say the rest, can I be absolutely
7clear about what can be chucked away?
8MR RAMPTON: Everybody else in file C.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: File C or C1?
10MR RAMPTON: I call mine C. It has 425 pages.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
12MR RAMPTON: And it is called Defendants Witness statements
13I should think.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I now seem to have back the file I swore
15blind I never had.
16MR RAMPTON: That is the one with the National Alliance
17material behind it.
18MR IRVING: When you say you are using Rebecca Guttmann's
19statement, does that mean to say you are also using all
20the appendices to it, or relying on them?
21MR RAMPTON: Yes.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I was going to ask.
23MR RAMPTON: Yes, I rely on the material that she picked up at
24a National Alliance meeting in 1998 at which Mr Irving
25gave a speech.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
1MR RAMPTON: To put it as neutrally as possible.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Is there anything else?
3MR RAMPTON: No.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you. I think it was necessary to have
5this fairly short session.
6MR RAMPTON: Yes, it was.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: So 10.30 on Monday 13th.
8(The court adjourned until Monday, 13th March 2000).
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1some confusion on Thursday evening, by the weekend I and
2Mr Rampton would have submitted to your Lordship a paper
3version of what we intend to say?
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you can do that it would be helpful, that
5I think is what I said on Thursday.
6MR IRVING: On the basis of which on Monday and Tuesday you
7will ask us questions, and on Wednesday we read out either
8in Mr Rampton's case his summary or in my case whatever
9I consider necessary of my speech in public.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. When you say I will ask questions, do
11not put the ball wholly in my court. I am hoping you will
12submit something in writing, but will also make the points
13that you regard as most significant and then I can pick
14you up on them if needs be.
15MR IRVING: My Lord, I am making further submissions, as your
16Lordship is aware, of which of course the Defence have not
17had a chance to answer, and it is only fair they should
18have a chance to answer and say, "This be struck out, that
19is not admissible, yes, this one is very powerful indeed".
20MR RAMPTON: I would propose this, that we, with Mr Irving, it
21does not need to involve the court, we make a date and a
22time for exchange of the long versions, and also the
23summaries if they are ready by then, then we see whether
24there is any water between us, and it may well be that
25there is, either side may be something the other side does
26not think they ought to be allowed to say, and your
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1Lordship may also have some queries or questions of your
2own.
3MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. As to timing, if you could do it by
4close of business on Thursday, even if it is not the
5final -- you could not?
6MR IRVING: No, not by Thursday.
7MR RAMPTON: I could not possibly do it by then. I will try to
8do by close of business on Friday. It will not take very
9long to read. One reads quite quickly when one knows a
10case well. I am told Friday logistically is optimistic.
11We will do the best we can. We will fix that with
12Mr Irving.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will not say anything about it, except that
14I think we ought to have speeches on Monday 13th. I do
15not want a slip on that.
16MR RAMPTON: A discussion about speeches?
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: The detail of speeches will start on Monday
1813th.
19MR IRVING: But they will not be public at that time?
20MR RAMPTON: The public can be in court during the discussion.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course they can, but there is extra
22accommodation being laid on, as it were, for Wednesday.
23MR RAMPTON: The only other question is, and normally speaking
24in a case like this when one has written a long speech
25which the Judge has read, even if one is not going to read
26it in court, it will of course be accessible to anybody
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1who wants a copy of it, whether they pay for it or whether
2they do not, and there ought to be perhaps an embargo on
3the release of the long version until the discussion about
4the long version has concluded.
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, without any doubt.
6MR RAMPTON: That leads me to mention one other thing. I am a
7bit of ahead of myself. It is this. When your Lordship
8comes to give judgment in the normal way the solicitors
9and counsel get a copy of the judgment a day before.
10Mr Irving does not have solicitors or counsel. (A) it is
11not fair if we get it a day before and he does not. (B)
12it is not fair if he gets a copy himself and my clients do
13not.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: Oddly enough I did not think I have ever had
15it.
16MR RAMPTON: I have.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: One has had cases with litigants in person,
18but I have never had this particular problem about how you
19deal with -- my instinct would be that Mr Irving does get
20it at the same time as your legal team get it, but that he
21is, as it were, strictly embargoed as to the use that he
22can make of it. That seem to me to be the fair-handed way
23of doing it.
24MR RAMPTON: That is all I am concerned about. What I do not
25want is him getting it into the public forum before we do,
26if I can put it crudely.
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1MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I mention some things that perhaps should
2be done before speeches. One is the Muller document.
3MR RAMPTON: Yes, it is in hand. It is being dealt with by
4Dr Longerich who is dealing directly with Munich and I
5think also with Ludwigsburg where it is thought there is
6another copy.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: Bearing in mind how quick Munich was to
8respond on the other document, I would be hopeful that you
9would be able to let me have something this week.
10MR RAMPTON: Yes. This is more problematical because they have
11been given the wrong file reference.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought they had tracked down the right
13file?
14MR RAMPTON: No, they know that it is the wrong one. They
15think they have the document but they have got to find
16it.
17MR IRVING: The problem with Munich is all that all that they
18have is a duplicated copy.
19MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know and that is why enquiries are being
20made of other archives, as I understand it. That is
21fine. Mr Rampton, the other thing, and it is the only
22thing that I think I need to ask you about is, I think you
23were going to give me a little bit help on what you might
24call the American Civil Evidence Act statements.
25MR RAMPTON: Yes. That is in charge of Miss Rogers. We are
26just down to the one now. The only one of the factual
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1Civil Evidence Act witnesses we want to use is Rebecca
2Guttmann about the National Alliance which I have already
3cross-examined on. Your Lordship can have this. It has
4file C, Rebecca Guttmann, and the rest can be chucked
5away.
6MR JUSTICE GRAY: When you say the rest, can I be absolutely
7clear about what can be chucked away?
8MR RAMPTON: Everybody else in file C.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: File C or C1?
10MR RAMPTON: I call mine C. It has 425 pages.
11MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
12MR RAMPTON: And it is called Defendants Witness statements
13I should think.
14MR JUSTICE GRAY: I now seem to have back the file I swore
15blind I never had.
16MR RAMPTON: That is the one with the National Alliance
17material behind it.
18MR IRVING: When you say you are using Rebecca Guttmann's
19statement, does that mean to say you are also using all
20the appendices to it, or relying on them?
21MR RAMPTON: Yes.
22MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I was going to ask.
23MR RAMPTON: Yes, I rely on the material that she picked up at
24a National Alliance meeting in 1998 at which Mr Irving
25gave a speech.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
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1MR RAMPTON: To put it as neutrally as possible.
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Is there anything else?
3MR RAMPTON: No.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you. I think it was necessary to have
5this fairly short session.
6MR RAMPTON: Yes, it was.
7MR JUSTICE GRAY: So 10.30 on Monday 13th.
8(The court adjourned until Monday, 13th March 2000).
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