Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 32: Electronic Edition
Pages 217 - 222 of 222
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Is that not relevant only to costs? Tell me
1if I am wrong, but that would be the way I would see it.
2MR IRVING: Not only the costs, my Lord, there are other
3features of part 36.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let me just read it.
5MR IRVING: My understanding is that your Lordship was not
6informed of what was in the offer, but that offer was made
7under the new rules.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not see the relevance of telling me that
9unless and until it comes to the question of costs.
10MR IRVING: Yes. The question of costs is covered by the next
11paragraph, which is that I do not propose asking for my
12costs in this action.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is premature to be telling me that.
14MR IRVING: Not at all, my Lord. This is surely the place when
15I can put this into your Lordship's mind and that deals
16with it, puts it out of the way.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is true, but I would only address that
18question once judgment had been given.
19MR IRVING: But I do ask your Lordship to give judgment in the
20terms and premises set out in my writ and statement of
21claim, namely damages, including aggravated damages for
22libel and an injunction restraining the Defendants and
23each of them, whether by themselves or agents or otherwise
24from further publishing or causing to be published the
25said or similar words defamatory of myself as claimant.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. You gave me that little list of other
1things you were going to raise today. Standard of proof
2in graver libels, I think you know that I believe I know
3what the law is on that so you need not trouble with it,
4unless you want to. Is there anything you wanted to say
5particularly, Mr Irving? I am not stopping you, I just do
6not think it is really necessary.
7MR IRVING: It is trite law, is it not, my Lord?
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is.
9MR IRVING: We had this discussion earlier and I thought it
10important -- in fact it is obviously very impertinent of
11me to draw it your Lordship's attention.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not at all, no. I have it in mind
13anyway. Section 5, I think we have resolved that in an
14earlier discussion today.
15MR IRVING: We have dealt with 4 because I have now done it.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Costs we have decided it is premature.
17Now I realize time is passing but it is obviously sensible
18to conclude everything today, and I hope I can perhaps do
19it in this comprehensive way. You have seen that in the
20Defendants' detailed written submissions they recite
21various concessions -- you may not like the term but they
22call them concessions which they say you have made about
23such matters as shootings in the East, numbers killed,
24whether it was systematic, whether Hitler knew about it,
25and also in relation to deaths at the Reinhardt death
26camps. Do you accept you did make those concessions?
1MR IRVING: The answer is I have not seen them, but I know of
2them. I have not had any time at all to read that big
3thick thing.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then I do not think it is fair to ask you to
5give answers on the hoof. What I will ask you to do
6though is this. If you either dispute that you ever made
7the concessions that the Defendants say you made, or you
8want now to reconsider ----
9MR IRVING: Resile.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I was trying not to use that word
11actually -- to reconsider, then would you write to me and
12to the Defendants, shortly setting out what you say you
13said, or what you now say?
14MR IRVING: Yes.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Because I do not want to be under any
16misapprehension.
17MR IRVING: Purely on the matter of concession?
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
19MR IRVING: I will certainly do that within the next two or
20three days.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. Is there anything else, Mr Rampton?
22MR RAMPTON: Yes, there is. I should like to apologise
23personally -- I dare say I am right in thinking it was
24directed at me -- for not being able in one moment to
25restrain my frustration. I apologise for that.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is no need for that.
1MR RAMPTON: Yes. I should at my age know better. But, as
2your Lordship will remember, it is sometimes extremely
3difficult to restrain oneself when one can actually hear
4the evidence of one's own witnesses being misrepresented.
5I am not going to do a trawl through what Mr Irving has
6said. Your Lordship has the evidence.
7 But there is one thing which he said which
8I really do think needs to be corrected. If this is a
9case without this kind of high profile, I might say
10nothing at all. Mr Irving said that Professor van Pelt
11had no explanation for the many oddities in Bischoff's
12letter of 29th June 1943. That is an important document.
13In fact, when I re-examined on 2nd February, that is day
1414, page 3 to page 13 at the end, by reference to the
15little clip of documents by which Mr Irving sought to show
16the uniquely ----
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I remember that quite well, all the
18oddities, as it were.
19MR RAMPTON: In fact, he explained every single oddity, except
20the missing year date in the reference.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I remember that quite well, but thank
22you for reminding me what the reference is.
23MR IRVING: My Lord, in view of my traditional right to the
24last word, I would reserve the right to write your
25Lordship a letter setting out the oddities in that
26Bischoff letter, with a copy to the Defendants.
1MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. I do not think I am going to invite
2that. I feel fairly deluged anyway with paper. I really
3do. I have in mind both what you said were the reasons
4why you at that stage disputed the authenticity, and
5I know you still question the authenticity of that
6document, but I also have in mind, in a general sense, the
7explanations that were given by Professor van Pelt. Now,
8anything else?
9MR RAMPTON: I hope what I am going to say will be a joint
10request. Because of all, as your Lordship can see, the
11interest in this case, much of it from overseas, I would
12ask that, perhaps a bit unusually, we could have --
13whenever the judgment may be, that is not what I am asking
14-- some reasonable advance notice of the date.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am anxious for all sorts of reasons,
16including the consideration you have just mentioned, that
17it should happen sooner rather than later, but I do not
18know how much notice is in practical terms really
19required, because I will not know until quite shortly
20before I actually finish that I am actually going to
21finish on a particular day. I mean two or three days. Is
22that far too short?
23MR RAMPTON: The only thing perhaps, if I might gently suggest
24it, is your Lordship might in fact finish before the day
25of judgment, if you know what I mean, in other words
26finish writing and have a fixed day, so that, even if your
1Lordship finished before that day is reached----
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, all right.
3MR RAMPTON: I think a week actually would in all the
4circumstances ----
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what you want? Mr Irving, I do not
6suppose you disagree with that, do you?
7MR IRVING: I have my own reasons for wanting to have a lot of
8advance notice please, yes.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will do that. I think that is sensible.
10You are going to forfeit the last word, are you?
11(The court adjourned)
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1if I am wrong, but that would be the way I would see it.
2MR IRVING: Not only the costs, my Lord, there are other
3features of part 36.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let me just read it.
5MR IRVING: My understanding is that your Lordship was not
6informed of what was in the offer, but that offer was made
7under the new rules.
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not see the relevance of telling me that
9unless and until it comes to the question of costs.
10MR IRVING: Yes. The question of costs is covered by the next
11paragraph, which is that I do not propose asking for my
12costs in this action.
13MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is premature to be telling me that.
14MR IRVING: Not at all, my Lord. This is surely the place when
15I can put this into your Lordship's mind and that deals
16with it, puts it out of the way.
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is true, but I would only address that
18question once judgment had been given.
19MR IRVING: But I do ask your Lordship to give judgment in the
20terms and premises set out in my writ and statement of
21claim, namely damages, including aggravated damages for
22libel and an injunction restraining the Defendants and
23each of them, whether by themselves or agents or otherwise
24from further publishing or causing to be published the
25said or similar words defamatory of myself as claimant.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. You gave me that little list of other
. P-217
1things you were going to raise today. Standard of proof
2in graver libels, I think you know that I believe I know
3what the law is on that so you need not trouble with it,
4unless you want to. Is there anything you wanted to say
5particularly, Mr Irving? I am not stopping you, I just do
6not think it is really necessary.
7MR IRVING: It is trite law, is it not, my Lord?
8MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is.
9MR IRVING: We had this discussion earlier and I thought it
10important -- in fact it is obviously very impertinent of
11me to draw it your Lordship's attention.
12MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is not at all, no. I have it in mind
13anyway. Section 5, I think we have resolved that in an
14earlier discussion today.
15MR IRVING: We have dealt with 4 because I have now done it.
16MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Costs we have decided it is premature.
17Now I realize time is passing but it is obviously sensible
18to conclude everything today, and I hope I can perhaps do
19it in this comprehensive way. You have seen that in the
20Defendants' detailed written submissions they recite
21various concessions -- you may not like the term but they
22call them concessions which they say you have made about
23such matters as shootings in the East, numbers killed,
24whether it was systematic, whether Hitler knew about it,
25and also in relation to deaths at the Reinhardt death
26camps. Do you accept you did make those concessions?
. P-218
1MR IRVING: The answer is I have not seen them, but I know of
2them. I have not had any time at all to read that big
3thick thing.
4MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then I do not think it is fair to ask you to
5give answers on the hoof. What I will ask you to do
6though is this. If you either dispute that you ever made
7the concessions that the Defendants say you made, or you
8want now to reconsider ----
9MR IRVING: Resile.
10MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I was trying not to use that word
11actually -- to reconsider, then would you write to me and
12to the Defendants, shortly setting out what you say you
13said, or what you now say?
14MR IRVING: Yes.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Because I do not want to be under any
16misapprehension.
17MR IRVING: Purely on the matter of concession?
18MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
19MR IRVING: I will certainly do that within the next two or
20three days.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. Is there anything else, Mr Rampton?
22MR RAMPTON: Yes, there is. I should like to apologise
23personally -- I dare say I am right in thinking it was
24directed at me -- for not being able in one moment to
25restrain my frustration. I apologise for that.
26MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is no need for that.
. P-219
1MR RAMPTON: Yes. I should at my age know better. But, as
2your Lordship will remember, it is sometimes extremely
3difficult to restrain oneself when one can actually hear
4the evidence of one's own witnesses being misrepresented.
5I am not going to do a trawl through what Mr Irving has
6said. Your Lordship has the evidence.
7 But there is one thing which he said which
8I really do think needs to be corrected. If this is a
9case without this kind of high profile, I might say
10nothing at all. Mr Irving said that Professor van Pelt
11had no explanation for the many oddities in Bischoff's
12letter of 29th June 1943. That is an important document.
13In fact, when I re-examined on 2nd February, that is day
1414, page 3 to page 13 at the end, by reference to the
15little clip of documents by which Mr Irving sought to show
16the uniquely ----
17MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I remember that quite well, all the
18oddities, as it were.
19MR RAMPTON: In fact, he explained every single oddity, except
20the missing year date in the reference.
21MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I remember that quite well, but thank
22you for reminding me what the reference is.
23MR IRVING: My Lord, in view of my traditional right to the
24last word, I would reserve the right to write your
25Lordship a letter setting out the oddities in that
26Bischoff letter, with a copy to the Defendants.
. P-220
1MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. I do not think I am going to invite
2that. I feel fairly deluged anyway with paper. I really
3do. I have in mind both what you said were the reasons
4why you at that stage disputed the authenticity, and
5I know you still question the authenticity of that
6document, but I also have in mind, in a general sense, the
7explanations that were given by Professor van Pelt. Now,
8anything else?
9MR RAMPTON: I hope what I am going to say will be a joint
10request. Because of all, as your Lordship can see, the
11interest in this case, much of it from overseas, I would
12ask that, perhaps a bit unusually, we could have --
13whenever the judgment may be, that is not what I am asking
14-- some reasonable advance notice of the date.
15MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I am anxious for all sorts of reasons,
16including the consideration you have just mentioned, that
17it should happen sooner rather than later, but I do not
18know how much notice is in practical terms really
19required, because I will not know until quite shortly
20before I actually finish that I am actually going to
21finish on a particular day. I mean two or three days. Is
22that far too short?
23MR RAMPTON: The only thing perhaps, if I might gently suggest
24it, is your Lordship might in fact finish before the day
25of judgment, if you know what I mean, in other words
26finish writing and have a fixed day, so that, even if your
. P-221
1Lordship finished before that day is reached----
2MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, all right.
3MR RAMPTON: I think a week actually would in all the
4circumstances ----
5MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what you want? Mr Irving, I do not
6suppose you disagree with that, do you?
7MR IRVING: I have my own reasons for wanting to have a lot of
8advance notice please, yes.
9MR JUSTICE GRAY: I will do that. I think that is sensible.
10You are going to forfeit the last word, are you?
11(The court adjourned)
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